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Knotwilg's practice

https://www.lifein19x19.com/viewtopic.php?t=12096

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Re: Knotwilg's practice

Posted: Fri Mar 29, 2019 2:35 pm
by Ian Butler
That was over quickly :D
Only a few days ago I explored the option of cutting like your opponent did at the 3-3 invasion. Don't feel like you can get a real good result, more of a trick move.

You have such a good eye for proper shape. I admire that. I don't know what your weaknesses are as a player, but I think your strengths are definitely playing solid shapes. That and sharp moves. But maybe that's just a more subjective feeling from a weaker player.

Re: Knotwilg's practice

Posted: Tue Apr 02, 2019 4:44 am
by Knotwilg
Divide and conquer

Re: Knotwilg's practice

Posted: Tue Apr 02, 2019 6:30 am
by Uberdude
Is your Fox username directed at Theresa?

Re: Knotwilg's practice

Posted: Tue Apr 02, 2019 8:35 am
by Knotwilg
Uberdude wrote:Is your Fox username directed at Theresa?
LOL I didn't realize it could!

No, I happen to own a second house in the north of France, in this beautiful town.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fumay

Re: Knotwilg's practice

Posted: Tue Apr 02, 2019 11:05 am
by Bill Spight
Uberdude wrote:Is your Fox username directed at Theresa?
https://www.avis-de-deces.net/f_theresa ... _2015.html

Re: Knotwilg's practice

Posted: Tue Apr 02, 2019 11:08 am
by Bill Spight
Ian Butler wrote:That was over quickly :D
Only a few days ago I explored the option of cutting like your opponent did at the 3-3 invasion. Don't feel like you can get a real good result, more of a trick move.
It has been played after the O-18 - N-18 exchange. :)

Re: Knotwilg's practice

Posted: Tue Apr 02, 2019 5:37 pm
by Uberdude
Playing that cutting hane after attach and pull back is an AI joseki: http://www.alphago-games.com/view/event ... /1/move/15 (which has a detailed WeiqiTV video review). The idea is you want white to cut leading to liberty shortages / bad aji so you should hane early because if you do it after then 2nd line hane connect white might not cut but dodge. Here Ke Jie dodged anyway! http://ps.waltheri.net/database/game/76897/. In the British championship I played 2nd line first which was a slight mistake but it ended up reverting because Sam cut when I haned later anyway:



And here I dodged just to annoy Boris: https://www.lifein19x19.com/viewtopic.p ... is#p231966

Re: Knotwilg's practice

Posted: Fri Apr 26, 2019 12:07 pm
by Knotwilg
Some time ago Ian asked "what is your weakness". After many games on Foxy I'd say, "picking fights when I'm ahead". I often get an early advantage, so when my opponent goes all out attacking, I engage instead of dodging. So this is now my challenge for the next 5 games: when ahead, reduce risk; offer the opponent to take a small gain and secure the lead.

Re: Knotwilg's practice

Posted: Sat Apr 27, 2019 1:20 pm
by Knotwilg
Knotwilg wrote:Some time ago Ian asked "what is your weakness". After many games on Foxy I'd say, "picking fights when I'm ahead". I often get an early advantage, so when my opponent goes all out attacking, I engage instead of dodging. So this is now my challenge for the next 5 games: when ahead, reduce risk; offer the opponent to take a small gain and secure the lead.
Well, I won all 5 games. In 2 of them the opponent resigned after the early advantage. In the others I think I fared well in playing solidly and securing the win.

Foxy 3d probably still is below my level. I'll next play a few games as 2d on KGS and review them with LZ to see where I need improvement.

Re: Knotwilg's practice

Posted: Fri May 10, 2019 4:01 pm
by Knotwilg
In the light of "modern endgame theory", how does it work in practice?

Here's a game of mine that ended in 2,5 for White (actually the opponent lost on time) but if I play what I think is ideal endgame from 204 onwards, is a half pointer.

I've done my endgame analysis but had to fall back on what I think is deiri - traditional theory.

At 204 there are moves A-H. What's their value?

Re: Knotwilg's practice

Posted: Fri May 10, 2019 4:04 pm
by Knotwilg
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$ Position at move 204
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . h . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . O X O . . . . X O . a . . . |
$$ | . . X O O O X O O O O . . . O O X . . |
$$ | . . X X O X O O X O X O O O X , X . . |
$$ | . . . X X X X X X O X O X X X . . . . |
$$ | . . O O O X . g O X X X O . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . X O X X O X O X O O O O X . . |
$$ | . O . X f O O O O X . O O X X O O b . |
$$ | . X . X O . . . . . O O X . X X O . . |
$$ | . X . X e . . . O d O X X X X O O . . |
$$ | . X O . O . . . O X X X O . X X X X . |
$$ | . X O . O . . O X O . . c . . . X . X |
$$ | . . X O . . . O X . O X . O . X O X . |
$$ | . X . X O . . O O X . . . . O O O O . |
$$ | . O . . . . O O X O O O O O X X X O . |
$$ | . . O O O . X O X X O X O X . , . X . |
$$ | . X X X O X . O X . X . X X . X X X . |
$$ | . O O O X . X X . X X X . O X . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . X . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Re: Knotwilg's practice

Posted: Sat May 11, 2019 4:12 am
by Knotwilg
Lizzie's analysis:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$ Position at move 204
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . h . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . O X O . . . . X O . a . . . |
$$ | . . X O O O X O O O O . . . O O X . . |
$$ | . . X X O X O O X O X O O O X , X . . |
$$ | . . . X X X X X X O X O X X X . . . . |
$$ | . . O O O X . g O X X X O . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . X O X X O X O X O O O O X . . |
$$ | . O . X f O O O O X . O O X X O O b . |
$$ | . X . X O . . . . . O O X . X X O . . |
$$ | . X . X e . . . O d O X X X X O O . . |
$$ | . X O . O . . . O X X X O . X X X X . |
$$ | . X O . O . . O X O . . c . . . X . X |
$$ | . . X O . . . O X . O X . O . X O X . |
$$ | z X . X O . . O O X . . . . O O O O . |
$$ | . O . . . . O O X O O O O O X X X O . |
$$ | . . O O O x X O X X O X O X . , . X . |
$$ | . X X X O X . O X . X . X X . X X X . |
$$ | . O O O X . X X . X X X . O X . . . . |
$$ | . . . y . X . . X . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
LZ definitely sees A as the biggest move, not only for Black but also for White. The hane to the right of A is also considered sente by LZ, as Black will respond up to S19 but A itself is more clearly sente

So much even that moves like E or F are not sente for Black in the global sense. White will play A in sente and grab a few capital points there.
D is obviously Black sente and as such incidental to the game
F is White sente

LZ agrees that B and C are the next big gote and will play either of them early, but definitely after A
G is on LZ's radar but not as an early move
H is incidental to the game, as it is sente for 0 points and then can make 1 point

In the bottom left corner, there are some border plays I missed

X - White gains a point there and threatens to capture a stone with a ko follower; Black can forestall this, threatening to enter WHite's territory but not in a big way
Y - is bigger than it may seem; if unanswered, Black can force a capture that loses 6 points compared to White playing 2 herself; if answered, White saves 3 of those points, so 2) is a 3 point sente for Black / 6 point gote
Z - if Black plays there, he makes two points; White playing 3 protects some points in the corner AND sets up a throw-in that gets 3 more points
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B Moves 205 to 214
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . O X O . . . . X O 2 1 3 . . |
$$ | . . X O O O X O O O O . . . O O X . . |
$$ | . . X X O X O O X O X O O O X , X . . |
$$ | . . . X X X X X X O X O X X X . . . . |
$$ | . . O O O X . . O X X X O . . . X 7 . |
$$ | . . . . X O X X O X O X O O O O X 6 . |
$$ | . O . X . O O O O X . O O X X O O 8 . |
$$ | . X . X O . . . . . O O X . X X O . . |
$$ | . X . X . . . . O , O X X X X O O . . |
$$ | . X O . O . . . O X X X O . X X X X . |
$$ | . X O . O . . O X O . 5 4 . . . X . X |
$$ | . . X O . . . O X . O X . O . X O X . |
$$ | . X . X O . . O O X . . . . O O O O . |
$$ | . O . . . 0 O O X O O O O O X X X O . |
$$ | . . O O O 9 X O X X O X O X . , . X . |
$$ | . X X X O X . O X . X . X X . X X X . |
$$ | . O O O X . X X . X X X . O X . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . X . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
In LZ's continuation, :w4: is sente and so White grabs :w6: too.
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B Moves 215 to 224
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . O X O . . . . X O O X X . . |
$$ | . . X O O O X O O O O . . . O O X . . |
$$ | . . X X O X O O X O X O O O X , X . . |
$$ | . . . X X X X X X O X O X X X . . . 9 |
$$ | . . O O O X . . O X X X O . . . X X 8 |
$$ | . . . 3 X O X X O X O X O O O O X O 0 |
$$ | . O . X 2 O O O O X . O O X X O O O . |
$$ | . X . X O . . . . . O O X . X X O . . |
$$ | . X . X 1 4 . . O , O X X X X O O . . |
$$ | . X O . O . . . O X X X O . X X X X . |
$$ | . X O . O . . O X O . X O . . . X . X |
$$ | . . X O . . . O X . O X . O . X O X . |
$$ | 7 X . X O . . O O X . . . . O O O O . |
$$ | . O . . . O O O X O O O O O X X X O . |
$$ | . 6 O O O X X O X X O X O X . , . X . |
$$ | . X X X O X . O X . X . X X . X X X . |
$$ | . O O O X . X X . X X X . O X . . . . |
$$ | . . . 5 . X . . X . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
Both grab central sente, then the Y and Z moves in the corner are executed. Next, White executes the sente follower in the upper right
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B Moves 225 to 233
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . 7 . 8 . . . . . . . . a . . . |
$$ | . . 5 X 4 O X O . . . . X O O X X . . |
$$ | . . X O O O X O O O O . . . O O X . . |
$$ | . . X X O X O O X O X O O O X , X . . |
$$ | . . . X X X X X X O X O X X X . . 1 X |
$$ | . . O O O X 9 6 O X X X O . . b X X O |
$$ | . . . X X O X X O X O X O O O O X O O |
$$ | . O . X O O O O O X . O O X X O O O . |
$$ | . X . X O . . . . . O O X . X X O . . |
$$ | . X h X X O . . O i O X X X X O O 3 . |
$$ | . X O g O . . . O X X X O . X X X X . |
$$ | . X O . O . . O X O . X O . c . X . X |
$$ | . . X O . . . O X . O X . O . X O X . |
$$ | X X . X O . . O O X . d . . O O O O . |
$$ | . O . f . O O O X O O O O O X X X O . |
$$ | . O O O O X X O X X O X O X . , . X . |
$$ | . X X X O X . O X . X . X X . X X X . |
$$ | . O O O X . X X . X X X . O X . . . . |
$$ | . . 2 X e X . . X . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
Small endgame remains and the game is very tight

A - 2 gote with some aji for White
B - 1 gote with 1 sente follower for White
C - 1 gote with 3 gote follower for white
D - 1 sente Black
E - ko with ko follower
F - 1 gote with major follower, so probably 1 sente White
G - 1 sente Black
H - 1 sente White
I - 1 sente Black

Re: Knotwilg's practice

Posted: Sat May 11, 2019 5:08 am
by dfan
I have gained a lot of endgame points with Y over the years! Those three stones (after you extend) that are left behind after the 3-3-invasion-double-hane joseki have a lot of subtle uses that players (at least at my level) often undervalue.

Re: Knotwilg's practice

Posted: Sat May 11, 2019 8:18 am
by Bill Spight
Top of the head point. In the last diagram :w4: should be at 7. Which means that :b3: should also be at 7. :)

Edit: My bad. Off the top of my head I thought that the top left was a Black sente, but it is a White sente. See later note.

Re: Knotwilg's practice

Posted: Sat May 11, 2019 11:06 am
by Knotwilg
I took this game as the sample game for "Practical Endgame"

https://senseis.xmp.net/?DieterVerhofst ... calEndgame

Bill, I'm not sure about your analysis. That move seems totally incidental to the game?
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