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#264 Joaz Banbeck vs TegaiS

https://www.lifein19x19.com/viewtopic.php?t=13687

Page 10 of 13

Re: #264 Joaz Banbeck vs TegaiS

Posted: Sun Dec 04, 2016 4:24 pm
by Kirby
Bill Spight wrote:@Kirby
I'll unhide #123 if you unhide #122. :)
I unhid it!

Re: #264 Joaz Banbeck vs TegaiS

Posted: Mon Dec 05, 2016 8:59 am
by TegaiS
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm81 Prisoners: :b2:
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . O . X . . O . . . . X . O . . |
$$ | . O . O . . . . X O . X . . . , X O . |
$$ | . . O O X X . . X O . . . . 1 . X . . |
$$ | . O . . O X . . . . O . O . . . . . . |
$$ | . X O O O X . O O . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X X X X X . . . . . . X . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . . O . . . O X . O X . . |
$$ | . . . X X . X X O , . O . O O , . . . |
$$ | . . O O O O . . O . . . O . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . X X . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . X . . . O . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O . X . X . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . 3 X . . . . . . X . 2 . X . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . 4 . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
I want to settle the situation here. So I consider contact plays K2 and K4.

I don't like this simple continuation
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm1 Prisoners: :b2:
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . O . X . . O . . . . X . O . . |
$$ | . O . O . . . . X O . X . . . , X O . |
$$ | . . O O X X . . X O . . . . X . X . . |
$$ | . O . . O X . . . . O . O . . . . . . |
$$ | . X O O O X . O O . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X X X X X . . . . . . X . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . . O . . . O X . O X . . |
$$ | . . . X X . X X O , . O . O O , . . . |
$$ | . . O O O O . . O . . . O . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . X X . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . X . . . O . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O . X . X . . 2 1 3 . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . X X . . . . . 4 X . O . X . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
The cut :w3: and sacrifice is probably better but looks a little bit risky.
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm1 Prisoners: :b2:
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . O . X . . O . . . . X . O . . |
$$ | . O . O . . . . X O . X . . . , X O . |
$$ | . . O O X X . . X O . . . . X . X . . |
$$ | . O . . O X . . . . O . O . . . . . . |
$$ | . X O O O X . O O . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X X X X X . . . . . . X . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . . O . . . O X . O X . . |
$$ | . . . X X . X X O , . O . O O , . . . |
$$ | . . O O O O . . O . . . O . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . X X . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . X . . . O . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . 7 . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O . X . X . . 2 1 . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . X X . . . . 4 3 X . O . X . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . 5 6 . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
This looks playable and simple.
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm1 Prisoners: :b2:
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . O . X . . O . . . . X . O . . |
$$ | . O . O . . . . X O . X . . . , X O . |
$$ | . . O O X X . . X O . . . . X . X . . |
$$ | . O . . O X . . . . O . O . . . . . . |
$$ | . X O O O X . O O . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X X X X X . . . . . . X . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . . O . . . O X . O X . . |
$$ | . . . X X . X X O , . O . O O , . . . |
$$ | . . O O O O . . O . . . O . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . X X . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . X . . . O . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . 5 . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O . X . X . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . X X . . . . 4 . X . O . X . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . 2 1 3 . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
If Black plays from the other side White becomes stronger as intended and can tenuki.
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm1 Prisoners: :b2:
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . O . X . . O . . . . X . O . . |
$$ | . O . O . . . . X O . X . . . , X O . |
$$ | . . O O X X . . X O . . . . X . X . . |
$$ | . O . . O X . . . . O . O . . . . . . |
$$ | . X O O O X . O O . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X X X X X . . . . . . X . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . . O . . . O X . O X . . |
$$ | . . . X X . X X O , . O . O O , . . . |
$$ | . . O O O O . . O . . . O . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . X X . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . X . . . O . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O . X . X . . 8 5 . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . X X . . . . . 6 X 3 O . X . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . 4 1 2 7 . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Re: #264 Joaz Banbeck vs TegaiS

Posted: Mon Dec 05, 2016 2:56 pm
by Joaz Banbeck
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm81 Prisoners: :b2:
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . O . X . . O . . . . X . O . . |
$$ | . O . O . . . . X O . X . . . , X O . |
$$ | . . O O X X . . X O . . . . 1 . X . . |
$$ | . O . . O X . . . . O . O . . . . . . |
$$ | . X O O O X . O O . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X X X X X . . . . . . X . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . . O . . . O X . O X . . |
$$ | . . . X X . X X O , . O . O O , . . . |
$$ | . . O O O O . . O . . . O . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . X X . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . X . . . O . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O . X . X . . . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . 3 X . . . . . . X . 2 . X . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . 5 4 . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
Life is busy here. Comments later.

Re: #264 Joaz Banbeck vs TegaiS

Posted: Mon Dec 05, 2016 8:00 pm
by TegaiS
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm81 Prisoners: :b2:
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . O . X . . O . . . . X . O . . |
$$ | . O . O . . . . X O . X . . . , X O . |
$$ | . . O O X X . . X O . . . . 1 . X . . |
$$ | . O . . O X . . . . O . O . . . . . . |
$$ | . X O O O X . O O . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X X X X X . . . . . . X . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . . O . . . O X . O X . . |
$$ | . . . X X . X X O , . O . O O , . . . |
$$ | . . O O O O . . O . . . O . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . X X . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . X . . . O . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O . X . X . . . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . 3 X . . . . . . X . 2 . X . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . 5 4 6 . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Re: #264 Joaz Banbeck vs TegaiS

Posted: Mon Dec 05, 2016 8:57 pm
by Joaz Banbeck
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm81 Prisoners: :b2:
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . O . X . . O . . . . X . O . . |
$$ | . O . O . . . . X O . X . . . , X O . |
$$ | . . O O X X . . X O . . . . 1 . X . . |
$$ | . O . . O X . . . . O . O . . . . . . |
$$ | . X O O O X . O O . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X X X X X . . . . . . X . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . . O . . . O X . O X . . |
$$ | . . . X X . X X O , . O . O O , . . . |
$$ | . . O O O O . . O . . . O . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . X X . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . X . . . O . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O . X . X . . . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . 3 X . . . . . 7 X . 2 . X . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . 5 4 6 . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
OK, I admit it: I chickened out. A player who was really sure of his plans and his reading would have tenukied on one of the last two moves. I think my reading is good, but I'm not absolutely sure.
If I stick to conservative moves, I think that I can stabilize the situation on the lower side, and come out of it with sente.

Re: #264 Joaz Banbeck vs TegaiS

Posted: Tue Dec 06, 2016 5:51 am
by TegaiS
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm81 Prisoners: :b2:
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . O . X . . O . . . . X . O . . |
$$ | . O . O . . . . X O . X . . . , X O . |
$$ | . . O O X X . . X O . . . . 1 . X . . |
$$ | . O . . O X . . . . O . O . . . . . . |
$$ | . X O O O X . O O . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X X X X X . . . . . . X . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . . O . . . O X . O X . . |
$$ | . . . X X . X X O , . O . O O , . . . |
$$ | . . O O O O . . O . . . O . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . X X . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . X . . . O . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . 8 . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O . X . X . . . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . 3 X . . . . . 7 X . 2 . X . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . 5 4 6 . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Re: #264 Joaz Banbeck vs TegaiS

Posted: Tue Dec 06, 2016 8:20 am
by Joaz Banbeck
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm81 Prisoners: :b3:
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . O . X . . O . . . . X . O . . |
$$ | . O . O . . . . X O . X . . . , X O . |
$$ | . . O O X X . . X O . . . . 1 . X . . |
$$ | . O . . O X . . . . O . O . . . . . . |
$$ | . X O O O X . O O . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X X X X X . . . . . . X . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . . O . . . O X . O X . . |
$$ | . 9 . X X . X X O , . O . O O , . . . |
$$ | . . O O O O . . O . . . O . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . X X . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . X . . . O . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . 8 . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O . X . X . . . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . 3 X . . . . . 7 X . 2 . X . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . 5 4 6 . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
Joaz Banbeck wrote:This move and B10 are miai. He has to answer. If I get both, his group dies.
...
Joaz Banbeck wrote:... I think my reading is good, but I'm not absolutely sure...
I don't see how this white group lives. I've found what I believed was a way to live, then I found that life was impossible. Then I found another one, and soon after found that life wasn't possible then either.
I've gone back and forth six times, and it is still before breakfast.

Re: #264 Joaz Banbeck vs TegaiS

Posted: Wed Dec 07, 2016 3:12 pm
by Go_Japan
Is this GG? I don't see a way to live. I previously thought E6 might be something, but I now don't think it can work.

Re: #264 Joaz Banbeck vs TegaiS

Posted: Wed Dec 07, 2016 5:25 pm
by emeraldemon
I would try something like this:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm1
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . O . X . . O . . . . X . O . . |
$$ | . O . O . . . . X O . X . . . , X O . |
$$ | . . O O X X . . X O . . . . X . X . . |
$$ | . O . . O X . . . . O . O . . . . . . |
$$ | . X O O O X . O O . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X X X X X . . . . . . X . . X . . |
$$ | 4 . 2 . . O . . O . . . O X . O X . . |
$$ | . X 1 X X . X X O , . O . O O , . . . |
$$ | . 3 O O O O . . O . . . O . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . X X . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . X . . . O . . O . . |
$$ | . . 5 . . . . . . . . O . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O . X . X . . . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . X X . . . . . X X . O . X . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . X O O . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
I heard somewhere six points is alive...

Re: #264 Joaz Banbeck vs TegaiS

Posted: Wed Dec 07, 2016 5:28 pm
by emeraldemon
Maybe black plays this way:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . O . X . . O . . . . X . O . . |
$$ | . O . O . . . . X O . X . . . , X O . |
$$ | . . O O X X . . X O . . . . X . X . . |
$$ | . O . . O X . . . . O . O . . . . . . |
$$ | . X O O O X . O O . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | 7 3 X X X X X . . . . . . X . . X . . |
$$ | 5 2 4 . . O . . O . . . O X . O X . . |
$$ | . X O X X . X X O , . O . O O , . . . |
$$ | . 1 O O O O . . O . . . O . . X . . . |
$$ | . 6 . . . . X X . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . 8 O . . . . . . X . . . O . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O . X . X . . . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . X X . . . . . X X . O . X . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . X O O . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Re: #264 Joaz Banbeck vs TegaiS

Posted: Wed Dec 07, 2016 5:29 pm
by emeraldemon
Question for Joaz
Mind showing us the sequence you read? :study:

Re: #264 Joaz Banbeck vs TegaiS

Posted: Wed Dec 07, 2016 6:07 pm
by dfan
A correction to the game record: White has captured 3 prisoners, not 2 (the third one was with move 76).

Re: #264 Joaz Banbeck vs TegaiS

Posted: Wed Dec 07, 2016 6:54 pm
by Go_Japan
emeraldemon wrote:
I would try something like this:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm1
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . O . X . . O . . . . X . O . . |
$$ | . O . O . . . . X O . X . . . , X O . |
$$ | . . O O X X . . X O . . . . X . X . . |
$$ | . O . . O X . . . . O . O . . . . . . |
$$ | . X O O O X . O O . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X X X X X . . . . . . X . . X . . |
$$ | 4 . 2 . . O . . O . . . O X . O X . . |
$$ | . X 1 X X . X X O , . O . O O , . . . |
$$ | . 3 O O O O . . O . . . O . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . X X . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . X . . . O . . O . . |
$$ | . . 5 . . . . . . . . O . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O . X . X . . . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . X X . . . . . X X . O . X . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . X O O . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
I heard somewhere six points is alive...
In response to C10, Black can play B11 and B9 is no longer forcing. I tried a bunch of variations and couldn't see it make life. I don't really know how to post files here, but I still don't see white living there. Black seems completely or nearly connected and quite safe in all parts of the board. White dying here is GG, imho. O3 seems to have a bit of aji as well in the corner open for black still, though using that kind of Aji is not something I am very good at.

Re: #264 Joaz Banbeck vs TegaiS

Posted: Wed Dec 07, 2016 9:45 pm
by TegaiS
Sorry for the delay. I overlooked the last Black move. Considered only B5. Now it is hard to find the way to live.
Here White can start a ko with B11. Not really good but better than nothing.
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm1 Prisoners: :b3:
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . O . X . . O . . . . X . O . . |
$$ | . O . O . . . . X O . X . . . , X O . |
$$ | . . O O X X . . X O . . . . X . X . . |
$$ | . O . . O X . . . . O . O . . . . . . |
$$ | . X O O O X . O O . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X X X X X . . . . . . X . . X . . |
$$ | 0 . . . . O . . O . . . O X . O X . . |
$$ | 9 X . X X . X X O , . O . O O , . . . |
$$ | . 1 O O O O . . O . . . O . . X . . . |
$$ | . 8 . 7 . . X X . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . 5 O . . . . . . X . . . O . . O . . |
$$ | . 2 3 . . . . . . . . O . . . . . . . |
$$ | 6 . 4 X . X . . . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . X X . . . . . X X . O . X . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . X O O . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
I will post some other variations later.

Re: #264 Joaz Banbeck vs TegaiS

Posted: Wed Dec 07, 2016 9:52 pm
by Go_Japan
TegaiS wrote:Sorry for the delay. I overlooked the last Black move. Considered only B5. Now it is hard to find the way to live.
Here White can start a ko with B11. Not really good but better than nothing.
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm1 Prisoners: :b3:
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . O . X . . O . . . . X . O . . |
$$ | . O . O . . . . X O . X . . . , X O . |
$$ | . . O O X X . . X O . . . . X . X . . |
$$ | . O . . O X . . . . O . O . . . . . . |
$$ | . X O O O X . O O . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X X X X X . . . . . . X . . X . . |
$$ | 0 . . . . O . . O . . . O X . O X . . |
$$ | 9 X . X X . X X O , . O . O O , . . . |
$$ | . 1 O O O O . . O . . . O . . X . . . |
$$ | . 8 . 7 . . X X . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . 5 O . . . . . . X . . . O . . O . . |
$$ | . 2 3 . . . . . . . . O . . . . . . . |
$$ | 6 . 4 X . X . . . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . X X . . . . . X X . O . X . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . X O O . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
I will post some other variations later.
I think A11 is not necessary. If black plays B11 in response to A10, white still has to get another eye from attacking the D7 stone. I don't think it is possible, but perhaps.
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