I thought I wasn't too crazy about the four variations in post 132 -- they're either OK for B, so-so for W, not so good for W, or unclear. Also, if B gets something like , then suddenly even my corner group is weak. So I decided to make sure my corner is OK first, take the cash, and see what B does.
$$B $$ --------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . 1 . . . . O . X . . . O X . $$ | . . . . X . X . O . . X O O X O $$ | . . O W . . . . . O . . O X X X $$ | . . X . . . . . . . O . . O X X $$ | . . X O O . . X . . . . . . . X $$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .
[go]$$B $$ --------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . 1 . . . . O . X . . . O X . $$ | . . . . X . X . O . . X O O X O $$ | . . O W . . . . . O . . O X X X $$ | . . X . . . . . . . O . . O X X $$ | . . X O O . . X . . . . . . . X $$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .[/go]
Re: 126. EdLee vs Loons
Posted: Fri Jul 15, 2011 12:55 am
by Loons
$$Bc $$ +---------------------------------------+ $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . O . X . . . O X . . . . | $$ | . . . O B . B . O . . X O O X O . . . | $$ | . . O O . . . . . O . . O X X X O . . | $$ | . . X . . . a . . . O . . O X X X . . | $$ | . . X O O . . X . . . . . l . X . . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . m . O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . n o . . . | $$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . X O X . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . X . X . O . | $$ | . . O . . X . . X . . . O . . . O . . | $$ | . . x X . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ +---------------------------------------+
[go]$$Bc $$ +---------------------------------------+ $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . O . X . . . O X . . . . | $$ | . . . O B . B . O . . X O O X O . . . | $$ | . . O O . . . . . O . . O X X X O . . | $$ | . . X . . . a . . . O . . O X X X . . | $$ | . . X O O . . X . . . . . l . X . . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . m . O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . n o . . . | $$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . X O X . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . X . X . O . | $$ | . . O . . X . . X . . . O . . . O . . | $$ | . . x X . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]
I'm not entirely convinced I have to defend with eg. 'a' now (which will likely be gote, especially as Ed fixing his cut is sente) after Ed's very defensive move, pending further reading of course. I would love to take the first move on the right with 'l', 'm', 'n' or 'o'. And I am in a permanent state of wanting to play 'x'.
I'm not really sure how protective I have to be of the marked stones, anyway (as long as Ed doesn't manage to capture them in a large way).
One of my weaknesses is that I'm not protective enough of my weak stones, so I will put a fair bit more thought into this.
Edit: I thought I'd briefly mention what we're all doubtless thinking; Ed's move makes a big, carpenter's square-esque eye in the corner. Not the most unconditionally alive of shapes. I wonder if I could aim at aiming at aiming at exploiting that somehow (which might actually be a point in favour of playing a slowish defence now, but who knows.).
$$Bcm55 $$ +---------------------------------------+ $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . O . X . . . O X . . . . | $$ | . . . O X . X . O . . X O O X O . . . | $$ | . . O O . . . b . O . . O X X X O . . | $$ | . . X a . . . . . . O . . O X X X . . | $$ | . . X O O . . X . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . 1 . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . X O X . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . X . X . O . | $$ | . . O . . X . . X . . . O . . . O . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ +---------------------------------------+
[go]$$Bcm55 $$ +---------------------------------------+ $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . O . X . . . O X . . . . | $$ | . . . O X . X . O . . X O O X O . . . | $$ | . . O O . . . b . O . . O X X X O . . | $$ | . . X a . . . . . . O . . O X X X . . | $$ | . . X O O . . X . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . 1 . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . X O X . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . X . X . O . | $$ | . . O . . X . . X . . . O . . . O . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]
Just from some local speculative reading (black playing 'a' cut next, white playing 'b' cut next...), I am now feeling very against tenuki. Everything seems too volatile. just occurred to me and I'm quite enamored with it, though it has no really obvious property other than helping my top group in a centrewards sort of way. I'll sleep on it. Surely a play on the right is big.
Re: 126. EdLee vs Loons
Posted: Fri Jul 15, 2011 3:35 pm
by Loons
$$Bcm55 $$ +---------------------------------------+ $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . O . X . . . O X . . . . | $$ | . . . O X . X . O . . X O O X O . . . | $$ | . . O O . . . . . O . . O X X X O . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . O . . O X X X . . | $$ | . . X O O . . X . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . 1 . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . X O X . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . X . X . O . | $$ | . . O . . X . . X . . . O . . . O . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ +---------------------------------------+
[go]$$Bcm55 $$ +---------------------------------------+ $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . O . X . . . O X . . . . | $$ | . . . O X . X . O . . X O O X O . . . | $$ | . . O O . . . . . O . . O X X X O . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . O . . O X X X . . | $$ | . . X O O . . X . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . 1 . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . X O X . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . X . X . O . | $$ | . . O . . X . . X . . . O . . . O . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]
I guess I am a player who plays impulsively, no matter how long I spend thinking.
One thought is that Ed's lone stone on the right isn't exactly heavy; sabaki seems well possible if I play there next. And top becomes dangerous for me if Ed plays there next. My move doesn't feel slow or heavy to me, but some complications remain open; we'll see what Ed has in mind.
Posted: Fri Jul 15, 2011 3:38 pm
by EdLee
First feeling is the probe ...
$$W $$ ----------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . O . X . $$ | . . . O X . X . O . . $$ | . . O O . . . . . O . $$ | . . X . . . . . . . O $$ | . . X O O . . X . . . $$ | . . 1 X . . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . X . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . X , . . . . . , . $$ | . . . . . . . . . . .
I knew a long time ago that this summer would be very busy for me, so finding the time to really study the variations has been a challenge. Not to mention I find the current situation difficult.
I'm not sure if ( ) is sente, but if B tenuki:
$$W1 $$ --------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . . . 9 . 7 O 6 X . . . $$ | . . . O X 8 X 4 O . . X O $$ | . . O O W . 3 5 . O . . O $$ | . . X . . . 1 2 . . O . . $$ | . . X O O . . X . . . . . $$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . X . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . .
[go]$$W1 $$ --------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . O . X . . . $$ | . . . O X . X . O . . X O $$ | . . O O . . . . . O . . O $$ | . . X . . . . . . . O . . $$ | . . X O O . . X . . . . . $$ | . 2 1 X . . . . . . . . . $$ | . 4 3 . . . . X . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . .[/go]
So after searching in vain, I settled with the bamboo joint , which may not be sente.
Re: 126. EdLee vs Loons
Posted: Mon Jul 18, 2011 2:51 am
by Loons
No worries, as always. Hope you're having a good (if busy) time.
Ed's move is a nice threat to cut/kill my two (more) top stones. I don't like saving dame stones, but I don't like just letting 'em die, especially while Ed's life is a carpenter's square-shape (he may have to take gote in future if I save them). Maybe it's big as in should-try-and-get-it-later big. Who knows, I have a wild headache.
Quite sure I'm leaving them for later (double-gote not big, assuming it is gote for me also...).
Posted: Mon Jul 18, 2011 2:53 am
by EdLee
Loons, thanks. Busy for sure, 'good' is relative.
Re: 126. EdLee vs Loons
Posted: Mon Jul 18, 2011 6:50 am
by emeraldemon
My sealed move:
$$Wm56 Prisoners: $$ ----------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . O . X . . . O X . . . . | $$ | . . . O X . X . O . . X O O X O . . . | $$ | . . O O 1 . . . . O . . O X X X O . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . O . . O X X X . . | $$ | . . X O O . . X . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . X . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . B . . . | $$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . X O X . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . X . X . O . | $$ | . . O . . X . . X . . . O . . . O . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ -----------------------------------------
[go]$$Bcm57 Prisoners: $$ ----------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . O . X . . . O X . . . . | $$ | . . . O X . X . O . . X O O X O . . . | $$ | . . O O O . . . . O . . O X X X O . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . O . . O X X X . . | $$ | . . X O O . . X . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . X . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1 . . . . | $$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . X O X . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . X . X . O . | $$ | . . O . . X . . X . . . O . . . O . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ -----------------------------------------[/go]
Eh, I've been wanting to play this jaunty cap for a dog's age, trying to unite my right side in purpose.
Leaving E13 sente to cut off my centre stones is a bit grim, pointing to an earlier mistake I'm unsure of. I'm not going to spend sente fixing it now, as the middle is very open.
Back to the current move, I expect some kind of local sabaki from Ed next (maybe he will find a good variation from jump->crosscut* or something), though he may also try/manage to live locally. Will be interesting. I expect sente, with which I imagine I'll revisit top-middle, and then finally c2. Of course, Ed is also playing this game...
*ie P12 O12 O11
Posted: Tue Jul 19, 2011 6:15 am
by EdLee
First feelings: my guess is Loons thinks killing and taking the right side is bigger than giving up , which at first glance is probably true. There are like 10,000 variations to read on the right side. I have no choice but to take the time and read as much as I can. With W(e), B is ready to activate the aji of B(f) push W(g) B(h) atari, so I must be very careful with the (e) side variations.
$$W $$ ----------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . O . X . . . O X . . . . | $$ | . . . O B . B . O . . X O O X O . . . | $$ | . . O O O . . . . O . f O X X X O . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . O g . O X X X . . | $$ | . . X O O . . X . . . . . h . X . . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . X . . . . . . e . W . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . | $$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . . d b a . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . c . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . X O X . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . X . X . O . | $$ | . . O . . X . . X . . . O . . . O . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ -----------------------------------------
, then suddenly even my corner 
group is weak.
just occurred to me and I'm quite enamored with it, though it has no really obvious property other than helping my top group in a centrewards sort of way. I'll sleep on it. Surely a play on the right is big.
... 
tenuki
( 
at 
; W can cut with 
.
and I'm still left with the cut:
(f) push, instead of 
(g) block,
(e).