Have to agree with Ed, this whole situation jeopardizes foreign support of the game in North America.
Re: Seattle Go Center sues Nihon Ki-in Japan
Posted: Wed Apr 25, 2012 4:01 pm
by jts
badukJr wrote:Have to agree with Ed, this whole situation jeopardizes foreign support of the game in North America.
Do you have a reason to believe this?
If it were generally true that Asian go/baduk organizations were interested in speculating in North American real estate, and as an afterthought were willing to let the local go communities use the real estate until the time came to liquidate the investment, yes, a ruling supporting the SGC could cut off similar real estate investments in the future.
On the other hand, if Asian donors are interested in funding go centers that will promote international go (and even bear their name) in perpetuity, they will undoubtedly by encouraged by a ruling in favor of the SGC and be more likely to make similar donations in the future.
No potential foreign supporter could read the complaint without being impressed by the filial loyalty of the Seattle leadership to the Nihon Ki-in up through the beginning of 2012.
Furthermore, if the Nihon Ki-in had succeeded in selling the center quickly enough to force the cancellation of the May 5 tournament, I seriously doubt the Hanguk Kiwon would have been impressed with the American Go community.
Re: Seattle Go Center sues Nihon Ki-in Japan
Posted: Wed Apr 25, 2012 5:39 pm
by badukJr
jts wrote:
badukJr wrote:Have to agree with Ed, this whole situation jeopardizes foreign support of the game in North America.
Do you have a reason to believe this?
If it were generally true that Asian go/baduk organizations were interested in speculating in North American real estate, and as an afterthought were willing to let the local go communities use the real estate until the time came to liquidate the investment, yes, a ruling supporting the SGC could cut off similar real estate investments in the future.
On the other hand, if Asian donors are interested in funding go centers that will promote international go (and even bear their name) in perpetuity, they will undoubtedly by encouraged by a ruling in favor of the SGC and be more likely to make similar donations in the future.
No potential foreign supporter could read the complaint without being impressed by the filial loyalty of the Seattle leadership to the Nihon Ki-in up through the beginning of 2012.
Furthermore, if the Nihon Ki-in had succeeded in selling the center quickly enough to force the cancellation of the May 5 tournament, I seriously doubt the Hanguk Kiwon would have been impressed with the American Go community.
Unfortunately you are only looking at this from the perspective of the SGC. From the Ki-in's perspective, the SGC is a child organization of the parent org. This is really obvious, especially with the name 'Nihon Ki-in Go Institute of the West'. Nobody in Japan is going to be impressed by SGC hitting back at the parent org in such a severe manner. I have no idea about Hanguk Kiwon, as I only do dealings in Japan.
This is an extremely destructive action. Its hard for me to express in words, the differences of expectations here. Its just something that is learned through experience. You don't have to believe me, but this is a dire situation.
Re: Seattle Go Center sues Nihon Ki-in Japan
Posted: Wed Apr 25, 2012 10:14 pm
by shapenaji
badukjr: Then I think it is more accurate to say that this action jeopardizes Japanese support of the game. So, besides the Nihon Kiin (Which is obviously not going to be happy about it) maybe the Kansai Kiin? Have they ever invested in go abroad?
Re: Seattle Go Center sues Nihon Ki-in Japan
Posted: Wed Apr 25, 2012 10:48 pm
by daal
badukJr wrote:Japanese orgs react very badly to being sued.
Part of your argument, here dredged from a previous post, is that there is a cultural misunderstanding going on, and that the Japanese have a different way of doing business than the Americans. While this is undoubtedly true, I can't help but wonder if Japanese companies never sue one another for reasons similar to the SGC's, and if not, would it also be a standard business practice to throw one's weight around and not respond to requests for negotiations?
While the Americans are indeed often rightly accused of cultural ignorance, it's not immediately apparent to me that the SGC is doing something that couldn't happen in Japan.
It seems to me from reading the lawsuit, that the misunderstanding took place well before the litigation, and it was not due to the Pacific Ocean, but rather to differing perceptions on the nature of the agreement. To the Nihon Ki-in, it was contractual, to the SGC it was a matter of good will and an handshake.
Re: Seattle Go Center sues Nihon Ki-in Japan
Posted: Wed Apr 25, 2012 11:58 pm
by tchan001
shapenaji wrote:badukjr: Then I think it is more accurate to say that this action jeopardizes Japanese support of the game. So, besides the Nihon Kiin (Which is obviously not going to be happy about it) maybe the Kansai Kiin? Have they ever invested in go abroad?
What a wonderful proposal. If the Kansai Kiin had a lot of money to invest abroad, they'd just love to invest in the 'Nihon Ki-in Go Institute of the West.
You'd probably have more luck convincing Bill Gates or Paul Allen to buy the SGC building and investing in the SGC than you would with the Kansai Kiin overseas investment.
Re: Seattle Go Center sues Nihon Ki-in Japan
Posted: Thu Apr 26, 2012 12:04 am
by shapenaji
tchan001 wrote:
shapenaji wrote:badukjr: Then I think it is more accurate to say that this action jeopardizes Japanese support of the game. So, besides the Nihon Kiin (Which is obviously not going to be happy about it) maybe the Kansai Kiin? Have they ever invested in go abroad?
What a wonderful proposal. If the Kansai Kiin had a lot of money to invest abroad, they'd just love to invest in the 'Nihon Ki-in Go Institute of the West.
You'd probably have more luck convincing Bill Gates or Paul Allen to buy the SGC building and investing in the SGC than you would with the Kansai Kiin overseas investment.
Oh, no it wasn't a proposal, I was just saying that the only other organizational relationship this threatens is the Kansai Kiin. And I was actually curious about whether or not the Kansai Kiin ever invested in go abroad...
Re: Seattle Go Center sues Nihon Ki-in Japan
Posted: Thu Apr 26, 2012 8:22 am
by Bok Choi
badukJr wrote:Japanese orgs react very badly to being sued. Unfortuantely the American side sometimes expects the Japan side to come to the table without any information provided in advance from the Americans.
This particular dispute seems between two Japanese organizations: The Nihon Kiin and the Nihon Kiin Institute of the West. If you read the litigation, most of the parties on both sides seem to be Japanese. One of the organizations is no doubt imbued with the spirit of Iwamoto. Let's hope the atomic bomb does not drop on this game of his.
Re: Seattle Go Center sues Nihon Ki-in Japan
Posted: Thu Apr 26, 2012 2:13 pm
by Javaness2
I don't really see how there can be a cultural misunderstanding if one of the centrql players on the SGC side is Japanese.
Blog post
"Seattle go Center has an amazing atmosphere.This is all thanks to the contributions of Mr. Fukuda (who is standing next to the big Go board) who led the Go center from the very early days and the efforts of the members.
We thank you deeply."
The main thing that shocks me in reading through this document is the near $32,000 cost of the opening celebration. I wish I had that sort of money to spend on opening a Go club!
Re: Seattle Go Center sues Nihon Ki-in Japan
Posted: Thu Apr 26, 2012 4:11 pm
by badukJr
daal wrote:
badukJr wrote:Japanese orgs react very badly to being sued.
Part of your argument, here dredged from a previous post, is that there is a cultural misunderstanding going on, and that the Japanese have a different way of doing business than the Americans. While this is undoubtedly true, I can't help but wonder if Japanese companies never sue one another for reasons similar to the SGC's, and if not, would it also be a standard business practice to throw one's weight around and not respond to requests for negotiations?
While the Americans are indeed often rightly accused of cultural ignorance, it's not immediately apparent to me that the SGC is doing something that couldn't happen in Japan.
It seems to me from reading the lawsuit, that the misunderstanding took place well before the litigation, and it was not due to the Pacific Ocean, but rather to differing perceptions on the nature of the agreement. To the Nihon Ki-in, it was contractual, to the SGC it was a matter of good will and an handshake.
In my experience, companies in Japan that do business with each other a lot are actually under one umbrella corporation. Making agreements between two companies not in this situation takes ages. Relationships are built up over years, and the first contracts will be for a very tiny bit of information exchange. I'm sure there are lawsuits but the circumstances would be severe. This is why from the Nihon Kiin's view, the SGC is de facto part of the Kiin. I'm sure they thought the SGC could continue without a permanent use place like almost every other club in the country.
It does seem to me that SGC thought it was all good will and a handshake, especially reading the litigation document. This is fine for a small 'go club', but when you involve a $71,000 loan and $3,000 lifetime memberships, its getting in a different territory. I would be angry if I dropped $3k on this and it disappeared because that is a lot of money for me personally, but it was a choice as well.
I don't really see how there can be a cultural misunderstanding if one of the centrql players on the SGC side is Japanese.
Blog post
"Seattle go Center has an amazing atmosphere.This is all thanks to the contributions of Mr. Fukuda (who is standing next to the big Go board) who led the Go center from the very early days and the efforts of the members.
We thank you deeply."
How central is he these days? I am genuinely curious. He was clearly heavily involved at the beginning. In fact, he had to guarantee the financial situation to have the building purchased (which doesn't surprise me), but what about the past few years? I mean, its really hard to know, for me.
Re: Seattle Go Center sues Nihon Ki-in Japan
Posted: Thu Apr 26, 2012 9:15 pm
by jts
badukJr wrote:
I don't really see how there can be a cultural misunderstanding if one of the centrql players on the SGC side is Japanese.
Blog post
"Seattle go Center has an amazing atmosphere.This is all thanks to the contributions of Mr. Fukuda (who is standing next to the big Go board) who led the Go center from the very early days and the efforts of the members.
We thank you deeply."
How central is he these days? I am genuinely curious. He was clearly heavily involved at the beginning. In fact, he had to guarantee the financial situation to have the building purchased (which doesn't surprise me), but what about the past few years? I mean, its really hard to know, for me.
From the affidavit, it looks like his sworn testimony and records are the central evidence in the case, and at the time of the receipt of the letter from the Nihon Kiin announcing the final decision to sell the center he was both a director of the SGC and held power of attorney for the Nihon Kiin (can't remember whether in the US as a whole or in the state of Washington only). Apparently he conducted all communications between Seattle and Japan, translating for both sides (except for legal documents which Nihon Kiin lawyers prepared in English). If you google his name, you'll see he was teaching the kids at a Japanese cultural festival just a few weeks ago.
[Admin]
For historical purposes, I'm adding a copy here in case the link above should someday not work. -JB
Statement regarding the proposed sale of the Seattle Go Center
May 2nd, 2012 Comments Off
The Board of Directors of Nihon Ki-in America and the New York Go Center (now closed) supports the continued operation of the Seattle Go Center. From its founding, the Seattle Go Center has been particularly successful in uniting players from all cultural backgrounds and in drawing broad support from the Go community. In that sense, the Seattle Go Center has been the most successful of Iwamoto-sensei’s four Go Centers.
The NYGC Board was not consulted or informed of Nihon Ki-in Japan’s plan to close the Seattle Go Center. We never suggested that Seattle be sold to fund New York. While we appreciate Nihon Ki-in Japan’s interest in reestablishing the New York Go Center, we strongly disapprove of doing so at the expense of the Seattle Go Center.
Both the Seattle Go Center and the New York Go Center are capable of supporting themselves financially thanks to Iwamoto-sensei’s generous contribution of the funds to purchase the buildings and the support of local players. It is not necessary to sacrifice either of them. Seattle should remain and the NYGC should be redeveloped and operated to serve the international Go community in New York. Properly run and maintained, the New York Go Center will undoubtedly generate income.
The Nihon Ki-in has generously supported international go for decades with the creation of overseas chapters, establishment of the World Amateur Championships and the International Go Foundation, invitations for overseas teachers, the visits of hundreds of professionals, and more. We acknowledge and greatly appreciate these contributions, and we value our friendship with the Japanese Go world. We hope the Nihon Ki-in will reevaluate its relationship with the American Go Centers and will realize that unilateral decisions – taken without the input of those who have put Iwamoto-sensei’s vision into action with years of volunteer effort – will seriously damage the relationship between Japanese Go and the American Go community. That damage can be avoided with cooperation and collaboration.
We believe the situation calls for the Nihon Ki-in to negotiate a mutually acceptable agreement with the American Go Association, the Seattle Go Center and the New York Go Center to make the best use of Iwamoto-sensei’s generous endowment to Go in the United States.
[/Admin]
Re: Seattle Go Center sues Nihon Ki-in Japan
Posted: Thu May 03, 2012 7:46 am
by Demonstyle
Bok Choi wrote:
badukJr wrote:Japanese orgs react very badly to being sued. Unfortuantely the American side sometimes expects the Japan side to come to the table without any information provided in advance from the Americans.
This particular dispute seems between two Japanese organizations: The Nihon Kiin and the Nihon Kiin Institute of the West. If you read the litigation, most of the parties on both sides seem to be Japanese. One of the organizations is no doubt imbued with the spirit of Iwamoto. Let's hope the atomic bomb does not drop on this game of his.
I'm not familiar with the Nihon Ki-in Institute of the West, but I know that Nihon Ki-in America, the nonprofit corporation that ran the NYGC, is an American company and has no direct relation to Nihon Ki-in Japan. The name is unfortunately confusing. I imagine the situation is similar in Seattle.
