Page 10 of 11

Re: 37. Redundant (4k) vs. Marcus (4k)

Posted: Sun Jun 20, 2010 8:40 pm
by Redundant
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm93 Move 93 - Prisoners: B=2, W=0
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . X O O . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . X . O . . O . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . X . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . X . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . X X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . X . . . . . O O O X |
$$ | . . . X . . . O . X . . . . . . . X . |
$$ | . . X . . X X X . . X . . . . . O O X |
$$ | . . . O O O O . . O . O . . . O . X . |
$$ | . X X X O X . O . . . . . . . . . O . |
$$ | . O O X X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O O X O O . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . O O X O . . X . O . . . . O . |
$$ | . . . . . . X O . X . X . . . . O X . |
$$ | . . O O X X . X 1 X . X . . O O . X . |
$$ | . . . . O X . . O . X O . O . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . O . . . . . . O . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

I don't know how he plans on killing me. After this response, I don't see any way for him to prevent me from living. Notice that H3 is sente. Even if I can't live locally, his central position is full of agi.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Diagram
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . X O O . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . X . O . . O . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . X . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . X . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . X X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . X . . . . . O O O X |
$$ | . . . X . . . O . X . . . . . . . X . |
$$ | . . X . . X X X . . X . . . . . O O X |
$$ | . . . O O O O . . O a O . . . O . X . |
$$ | . X X X O X . O . . . . . . . . . O . |
$$ | . O O X X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O O X O O . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . O O X O . . X . O . . . . O . |
$$ | . . . . . . X O . X . X . . . . O X . |
$$ | . . O O X X . X X X . X . . O O . X . |
$$ | . . . . O X . . O . X O . O . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . O . . . . . . O . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Notice that after I cut through here, he has an eyeless group in the center.

Re: 37. Redundant (4k) vs. Marcus (4k)

Posted: Mon Jun 21, 2010 12:54 am
by daniel_the_smith
White's last few moves are terrible. You just cannot play like that unless you can completely read out a clean kill. I'm preaching at myself a bit here, though... ;-)

Re: 37. Redundant (4k) vs. Marcus (4k)

Posted: Mon Jun 21, 2010 1:06 am
by topazg
My sealed moves:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W Diagram
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . X O O . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . X . O . . O . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . X . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . X . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . X X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . X . . . . . O O O X |
$$ | . . . X . . . O . X . . . . . . . X . |
$$ | . . X . . X X X . . X . . . . . O O X |
$$ | . . . O O O O . . O . O . . . O . X . |
$$ | . X X X O X . O . . . . . . . . . O . |
$$ | . O O X X X . . 2 . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O O X O O . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . O O X O . . X . O . . . . O . |
$$ | . . . . . . X O . X . X . . . . O X . |
$$ | . . O O X X . X X X . X . . O O . X . |
$$ | . . . . O X . 1 O . X O . O . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . O . . . . . . O . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Re: 37. Redundant (4k) vs. Marcus (4k)

Posted: Mon Jun 21, 2010 5:32 am
by Marcus
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm94 Move 94 - Prisoners: B=2, W=0
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . X O O . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . X . O . . O . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . X . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . X . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . X X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . X . . . . . O O O X |
$$ | . . . X . . . O . X . . . . . . . X . |
$$ | . . X . . X X X . . X . . . . . O O X |
$$ | . . . O O O O . . O . O . . . O . X . |
$$ | . X X X O X . O . . . . . . . . . O . |
$$ | . O O X X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O O X O O . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . O O X O . . X . O . . . . O . |
$$ | . . . . . . X O . X . X . . . . O X . |
$$ | . . O O X X . X X X . X . . O O . X . |
$$ | . . . . O X . 1 O . X O . O . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . O . . . . . . O . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Looks like the observers are making some comments. Likely someone has found the line of play that either lives or that kills. Don't know which, though. This is where Black can decide how he wants to try and live. Likely he'll try to cut off my stones with the push-cut:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm94 Move 94 - Prisoners: B=2, W=0
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . X O O . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . X . O . . O . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . X . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . X . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . X X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . X . . . . . O O O X |
$$ | . . . X . . . O . X . . . . . . . X . |
$$ | . . X . . X X X . . X . . . . . O O X |
$$ | . . . O O O O . . O 4 O . . . O . X . |
$$ | . X X X O X . O . a 5 b . . . . . O . |
$$ | . O O X X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O O X O O . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . O O X O . . X . O . . . . O . |
$$ | . . . . . . X O . X . X . . . . O X . |
$$ | . . O O X X . X X X . X . . O O . X . |
$$ | . . . . O X 2 1 O . X O . O . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . O . . . . 3 . O . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


I haven't figured out how I want to handle this. Still thinking.

Re: 37. Redundant (4k) vs. Marcus (4k)

Posted: Mon Jun 21, 2010 6:28 am
by Magicwand
daniel_the_smith wrote:
White's last few moves are terrible. You just cannot play like that unless you can completely read out a clean kill. I'm preaching at myself a bit here, though... ;-)

white is losing big.. i think it make sense to go for the kill. although i dont agree about clean kill but i like the spirit of it.

Re: 37. Redundant (4k) vs. Marcus (4k)

Posted: Mon Jun 21, 2010 6:45 am
by Redundant
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm95 Move 95 - Prisoners: B=2, W=0
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . X O O . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . X . O . . O . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . X . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . X . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . X X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . X . . . . . O O O X |
$$ | . . . X . . . O . X . . . . . . . X . |
$$ | . . X . . X X X . . X . . . . . O O X |
$$ | . . . O O O O . . O . O . . . O . X . |
$$ | . X X X O X . O . . . . . . . . . O . |
$$ | . O O X X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O O X O O . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . O O X O . . X . O . . . . O . |
$$ | . . . . . . X O . X . X . . . . O X . |
$$ | . . O O X X . X X X . X . . O O . X . |
$$ | . . . . O X . O O . X O . O . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . O . . . . . 1 O . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

This was a very good move by my opponent. He hit one of my blind spots.

My response here doesn't quite work, but gets very complicated. This move means that he must connect his two stones to the left side. Also, I get the hane at M1 in sente, which helps me to make an eye on the bottom. The problem is that in the many variations I've looked at, if I get the eye on the bottom, he gets a throw in to kill my eye at l4. I'll see how he responds. Also, even if he kills me locally, I might be able to get an eye in the center.

Re: 37. Redundant (4k) vs. Marcus (4k)

Posted: Mon Jun 21, 2010 7:34 am
by Redundant
Image

Good News, Everybody!

I'm going to live ... I think.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm1 Move 95 - Prisoners: B=2, W=0
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . X O O . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . X . O . . O . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . X . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . X . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . X X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . X . . . . . O O O X |
$$ | . . . X . . . O . X . . . . . . . X . |
$$ | . . X . . X X X . . X . . . . . O O X |
$$ | . . . O O O O . . O a O . . . O . X . |
$$ | . X X X O X . O b . . . . . . . . O . |
$$ | . O O X X X . c . . 5 . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O O X O O . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . O O X O . . X . O . . . . O . |
$$ | . . . . . . X O . X . X . . . . O X . |
$$ | . . O O X X 3 X X X . X . . O O . X . |
$$ | . . . . O X 2 O O . X O . O . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . O 4 . . . . 1 O . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


I can get 3 in sente, so after 5, I can cut at either a, b, or c. I'm fairly certain I can win the capturing race. I might not be able to cut directly at c, but the weakness there is enough.

Re: 37. Redundant (4k) vs. Marcus (4k)

Posted: Mon Jun 21, 2010 8:36 am
by daniel_the_smith
Why doesn't black play like this? White goes down in flames, no?

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc Move 95 - Prisoners: B=2, W=0
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . X O O . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . X . O . . O . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . X . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . X . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . X X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . X . . . . . O O O X |
$$ | . . . X . . . O . X . . . . . . . X . |
$$ | . . X . . X X X . . X . . . . . O O X |
$$ | . . . O O O O . . O 2 O . . . O . X . |
$$ | . X X X O X . O 5 . 1 . . . . . . O . |
$$ | . O O X X X . 4 3 . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O O X O O . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . O O X O . . X . O . . . . O . |
$$ | . . . . . . X O . X . X . . . . O X . |
$$ | . . O O X X . X X X . X . . O O . X . |
$$ | . . . . O X . O O . X O . O . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . O . O . . . X O . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Re: 37. Redundant (4k) vs. Marcus (4k)

Posted: Mon Jun 21, 2010 5:48 pm
by Marcus
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm96 Move 96 - Prisoners: B=2, W=0
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . X O O . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . X . O . . O . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . X . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . X . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . X X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . X . . . . . O O O X |
$$ | . . . X . . . O . X . . . . . . . X . |
$$ | . . X . . X X X . . X . . . . . O O X |
$$ | . . . O O O O . . O . O . . . O . X . |
$$ | . X X X O X . O . . . . . . . . . O . |
$$ | . O O X X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O O X O O . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . O O X O . . X . O . . . . O . |
$$ | . . . . . . X O . X . X . . . . O X . |
$$ | . . O O X X . X X X . X . . O O . X . |
$$ | . . . . O X 1 O O . X O . O . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . O . . . . . X O . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


This move is forced, if I want to keep those stones alive.

Re: 37. Redundant (4k) vs. Marcus (4k)

Posted: Mon Jun 21, 2010 6:04 pm
by Redundant
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm97 Move 97 - Prisoners: B=2, W=0
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . X O O . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . X . O . . O . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . X . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . X . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . X X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . X . . . . . O O O X |
$$ | . . . X . . . O . X . . . . . . . X . |
$$ | . . X . . X X X . . X . . . . . O O X |
$$ | . . . O O O O . . O . O . . . O . X . |
$$ | . X X X O X . O . . . . . . . . . O . |
$$ | . O O X X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O O X O O . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . O O X O . . X . O . . . . O . |
$$ | . . . . . . X O . X . X . . . . O X . |
$$ | . . O O X X 1 X X X . X . . O O . X . |
$$ | . . . . O X O O O . X O . O . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . O . . . . . X O . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

I'm dead locally. However,

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm97 Diag
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . X O O . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . X . O . . O . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . X . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . X . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . X X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . X . . . . . O O O X |
$$ | . . . X . . . O . X . . . . . . . X . |
$$ | . . X . . X X X . . X . . . . . O O X |
$$ | . . . O O O O b 6 O 4 O . . . O . X . |
$$ | . X X X O X . O 5 . . . . . . . . O . |
$$ | . O O X X X . a 7 . 3 . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O O X O O . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . O O X O . . X . O . . . . O . |
$$ | . . . . . . X O . X . X . . . . O X . |
$$ | . . O O X X 1 X X X . X . . O O . X . |
$$ | . . . . O X O O O . X O . O . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . O 2 . . . . X O . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

a and b are miai to cut. I win the capturing race. Of course, white can protect his weakness at l10 differently. However, everything I looked at has him cut and captured.

Re: 37. Redundant (4k) vs. Marcus (4k)

Posted: Tue Jun 22, 2010 9:06 am
by Marcus
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm98 Move 98 - Prisoners: B=2, W=0
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . X O O . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . X . O . . O . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . X . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . X . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . X X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . X . . . . . O O O X |
$$ | . . . X . . . O . X . . . . . . . X . |
$$ | . . X . . X X X . . X . . . . . O O X |
$$ | . . . O O O O . . O . O . . . O . X . |
$$ | . X X X O X . O . . . . . . . . . O . |
$$ | . O O X X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O O X O O . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . O O X O . . X . O . . . . O . |
$$ | . . . . . . X O . X . X . . . . O X . |
$$ | . . O O X X X X X X . X . . O O . X . |
$$ | . . . . O X O O O . X O . O . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . O 1 . . . . X O . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Not much choice here.

Re: 37. Redundant (4k) vs. Marcus (4k)

Posted: Tue Jun 22, 2010 9:33 am
by Redundant
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm99 Move 99 - Prisoners: B=2, W=0
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . X O O . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . X . O . . O . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . X . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . X . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . X X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . X . . . . . O O O X |
$$ | . . . X . . . O . X . . . . . . . X . |
$$ | . . X . . X X X . . X . . . . . O O X |
$$ | . . . O O O O . . O . O . . . O . X . |
$$ | . X X X O X . O . . . . . . . . . O . |
$$ | . O O X X X . . . . 1 . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O O X O O . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . O O X O . . X . O . . . . O . |
$$ | . . . . . . X O . X . X . . . . O X . |
$$ | . . O O X X X X X X . X . . O O . X . |
$$ | . . . . O X O O O . X O . O . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . O O . . . . X O . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Let's hope that I haven't misread.

Re: 37. Redundant (4k) vs. Marcus (4k)

Posted: Tue Jun 22, 2010 9:36 am
by topazg
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm101 Move 101 - Prisoners: B=2, W=0
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . X O O . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . X . O . . O . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . X . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . X . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . X X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . X . . . . . O O O X |
$$ | . . . X . . . O . X . . . . . . . X . |
$$ | . . X . . X X X . . X . . . . . O O X |
$$ | . . . O O O O . . O 1 O . . . O . X . |
$$ | . X X X O X . O . W 2 3 5 . . . . O . |
$$ | . O O X X X . . 9 7 X 4 . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O O X O O . 8 6 0 . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . O O X O . . X . O . . . . O . |
$$ | . . . . . . X O . X . X . . . . O X . |
$$ | . . O O X X X X X X . X . . O O . X . |
$$ | . . . . O X O O O . X O . O . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . O O . . . . X O . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


May not be Black that scores a kill here ..

Re: 37. Redundant (4k) vs. Marcus (4k)

Posted: Tue Jun 22, 2010 9:44 am
by daniel_the_smith
@topazg
I think this still works for black.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . X O O . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . X . O . . O . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . X . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . X . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . X X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . X . . . . . O O O X |
$$ | . . . X . . . O . X . . . . . . . X . |
$$ | . . X . . X X X . . X . . . . . O O X |
$$ | . . . O O O O . . O . O . . . O . X . |
$$ | . X X X O X . O . W . . . . . . . O . |
$$ | . O O X X X . . 1 . B . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O O X O O . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . O O X O . . X . O . . . . O . |
$$ | . . . . . . X O . X . X . . . . O X . |
$$ | . . O O X X X X X X . X . . O O . X . |
$$ | . . . . O X O O O . X O . O . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . O O . . . . X O . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Re: 37. Redundant (4k) vs. Marcus (4k)

Posted: Tue Jun 22, 2010 1:08 pm
by Marcus
Taking some time here.

... that's not a peep ... must read ... more later ...