Robert Jasiek's Go Theory Research

Create a study plan, track your progress and hold yourself accountable.
User avatar
Cassandra
Lives in sente
Posts: 1326
Joined: Wed Apr 28, 2010 11:33 am
Rank: German 1 Kyu
GD Posts: 0
Has thanked: 14 times
Been thanked: 153 times

Re: Robert Jasiek's Go Theory Research

Post by Cassandra »

RobertJasiek wrote:Cassandra, my paper *snip*


Dear Robert,

If you wanded the contents of your paper to remain completely "inside your world", and not let it diffuse slowly to the "common world", and let it be understood therein, why on earth did you publish it ? And where does your assumption come from that it would benefit the "common world" (e.g. increase the insight into what you call "ko strategy") ? Because the above will be also true for your other papers, why on earth did you start this thread ?

If you were a monopolist, who distributed an indispensable product, I could understand that you strove by all means to have the entry barrier into your market as high as possible. But you are the owner of a market nicher, who wants to sell a dispensable niche product, and strive by all means to not become engaged in any marketing, or promotion, measure that could support the launching of your brand.



For the rest of your post,

Boidhre wrote:Robert, you are completely failing to understand what I'm saying and I can't be bothered with this, so grand, whatever.


applies, too.
The really most difficult Go problem ever: https://igohatsuyoron120.de/index.htm
Igo Hatsuyōron #120 (really solved by KataGo)
pwaldron
Lives in gote
Posts: 409
Joined: Wed May 19, 2010 8:40 am
GD Posts: 1072
Has thanked: 29 times
Been thanked: 182 times

Re: Robert Jasiek's Go Theory Research

Post by pwaldron »

RobertJasiek wrote:Boidhre, a typical research paper would have the abstract, the 2 pages of definitions, about one example per type of ko intersection and little else.


Could you point us towards a "typical" go research paper?
User avatar
RBerenguel
Gosei
Posts: 1585
Joined: Fri Nov 18, 2011 11:44 am
Rank: KGS 5k
GD Posts: 0
KGS: RBerenguel
Tygem: rberenguel
Wbaduk: JohnKeats
Kaya handle: RBerenguel
Online playing schedule: KGS on Saturday I use to be online, but I can be if needed from 20-23 GMT+1
Location: Barcelona, Spain (GMT+1)
Has thanked: 576 times
Been thanked: 298 times
Contact:

Re: Robert Jasiek's Go Theory Research

Post by RBerenguel »

RobertJasiek wrote:Boidhre, a typical research paper would have the abstract, the 2 pages of definitions,

Wrong. I have provided one example already. I could give around 20 more without more effort than opening my old department friends' homepages and grabbing their preprints from there.

RobertJasiek wrote: The preface, reasons for the non-obvious conditions and most of the remarks would be omitted;

Wrong. I have already commented on this.
RobertJasiek wrote:all the other examples would have been omitted and replaced by a short remark "has successfully been applied to all known ko shapes and to important counter-examples";

Wrong, usually this kind of results get written in a paper to be submitted to a lesser journal, and available in the researcher's page, at the very least. Likewise, I could bring a few examples without much effort.
RobertJasiek wrote:the definitions would have used mathematical annotation, so that more go players have less chance to understand them.

I guess the go theory researchers and the go players with mathematical inclinations are pretty much overlapping. I guess most go players interested in this paper are in this subset. I don't see then where mathematical notation would have hurted.
RobertJasiek wrote: So, of course, the paper does not look like typical research papers, which are compressed to be short enough to fit in a journal.

Wrong. I have already commented on the amount of work needed in a typical research paper to write introduction and preliminary sections. They can easily be more than 30% of the whole paper.

RobertJasiek wrote:If somebody complains about an, in his opinion, missing / low quality of the paper, he should justify it by better reasons than his missing willingness to invest time and effort, or ask questions.

In my opinion (what a funny turn of events that I have to use this phrase!) your paper has a very low quality preface and preliminaries. It lacks a table of contents. The typesetting is sub-par (no named definitions, no cross-reference of definitions and hypotheses, etc.) It lacks a clear structure. The phrasing in most places I checked is unclear, with long phrases. The overuse of the passive voice should be avoided. The definitions and restrictions in the first pages lack immediate motivation (since a definition for a new term has to be motivated either immediately before or immediately after it is needed or introduced in practice.) The fact that the paper lacks all this has nothing to do with the fact I don't give a **** about its contents.

RobertJasiek wrote:I do not expect the paper to be widely read, because it is not written for the non-theorist go player. I do not recall any go theory research paper that would have been written for the non-theorist go player. This is no coincidence, because translation for him requires more time than an author of a research paper tends to have. Nevertheless, ordinary players can appreciate at least the example diagrams.

Almost no researcher expects his papers to be read by except than a handful of other researchers. And anyway, they care and try to make it readable. Also, above you said

RobertJasiek wrote:the definitions would have used mathematical annotation, so that more go players have less chance to understand them


and now you say

RobertJasiek wrote:I do not expect the paper to be widely read, because it is not written for the non-theorist go player.


So, who shaves Bertrand Russell?
Geek of all trades, master of none: the motto for my blog mostlymaths.net
User avatar
Cassandra
Lives in sente
Posts: 1326
Joined: Wed Apr 28, 2010 11:33 am
Rank: German 1 Kyu
GD Posts: 0
Has thanked: 14 times
Been thanked: 153 times

Re: Robert Jasiek's Go Theory Research

Post by Cassandra »

RobertJasiek wrote:Cassandra, my paper is not meant to be interpreted with common understanding, but understanding must come from the paper's definitions. *snip*

May be that you are the ONLY one who thinks that understanding of your paper must come ONLY from "your world" inside your paper.
But you massively overburden the inhabitants of the "common world". And additionally, what benefit should come from studying the contents of your paper, which is valid only within the borders of "your world", and cannot be transformed to the "common world" ?

Let me give you an example, which is not related to the game of Go.

Let us assume that there is a "common understanding" what a "car" is. Your claim is to have a very special "car theory", which will bring forward the ability of driving cars.

Your definition of a car, its elements, their properties, and behaviours, do not fit "common expectations". Even if is seems that some of your definitions etc. are largely similar to what is used in the "common world", especially if you use identical terms, properties, and behaviour, of the element in question will still differ from "common expectation".

"Your car" has four "wheels", as "commonly expected", but these are not circular, but 32-angled, not made of rubber, but plastic, not filled with air, but solid. "Your car" has a "steering wheel", as "commonly expected", but turning this wheel left makes the car turning right.

It might be possible that someone will be able to drive "your car", but in a very special, and sheltered, environment only. No one (maybe but you) will be interested in driving "your car" within the "common world".
The really most difficult Go problem ever: https://igohatsuyoron120.de/index.htm
Igo Hatsuyōron #120 (really solved by KataGo)
RobertJasiek
Judan
Posts: 6273
Joined: Tue Apr 27, 2010 8:54 pm
GD Posts: 0
Been thanked: 797 times
Contact:

Re: Robert Jasiek's Go Theory Research

Post by RobertJasiek »

Cassandra, there is not "my world", but there are "my definitions". The definitions can be read by everybody, regardless of whether they are not understood by everybody.

In maths, the purpose of a definition is to use or apply this definition. The purpose is not: to avoid its use or application.

Theory goes through stages:

1. The theory is created.

2. The theory is understood by others.

3. Optionally, an approximation of the theory is translated so that more people can understand at least the basic idea.

Maybe you confuse the stages 2 and 3. On the on hand, you want to understand the theory itself, e.g., when you try to find mistakes in it in order to prove how bad a researcher I am;) OTOH, you want an approximation of the theory, e.g., when you complain that I insist on my definitions being used and applied at least when my paper as such is being discussed.

I published the theory in particular for the purposes 1 to 3.

That usually 3 comes after 1 and 2 does not mean that 3 would be impossible.

Elsewhere, I gave hints how ordinary players can profit from the theory or an approximative understanding of its basic idea.

My other papers do not all fall into one kind. I have written research papers and have written other (more) application friendly papers.

My "pure" go theory papers are not marketing papers.

pwaldron, examples of typical go research papers:

http://www.dumbo.ai.kyutech.ac.jp/~teigo/GoResearch/
http://typo3.cs.uni-paderborn.de/filead ... f13_cg.pdf
http://lie.math.brocku.ca/twolf/papers/semeai.pdf

RBerenguel, it seems we were confronted with different kinds of papers at university.

Mathematical notation would have hurted, e.g., my own research, because it could have proceded only much more slowly.

Concerning the research amount for my ko paper: did you notice that it took me 13.5 years?

Concerning your comment "has a very low quality preface and preliminaries. It lacks a table of contents. The typesetting is sub-par (no named definitions, no cross-reference of definitions and hypotheses, etc.)", I agree that these aspects could be improved greatly if I invested a couple of additional weeks. I lack the time to do so.

Concerning "lacks a clear structure", I disagree: the paper is devided into clear sections, as are the definitions.

Concerning "The phrasing in most places I checked is unclear, with long phrases." it depends on whether you mean the definitions or the commentary. The commentary I have not optimised for best English, because I lack time to do so. The definitions have a couple of long phrases or sentences, because this supports conveying the contents. If sentences were split, unnecessary ambiguity would be introduced about which sentence provides additional necessary conditions for which other sentences. Alternatively, the definition text could have been made much longer by using many lists; I have preferring to use lists for the central definitions, to emphasise them; if I had used lists everywhere, this emphasis would have been lost.

Concerning aspects of English style in that paper, I lack time to improve it. You need to a) not read, b) bear this / complain about this or c) wait one or two decades, until hopefully find time to publish everything in a book. Since I lack time to improve the English style in such papers quickly, my alternative would be not to publish such papers. I prefer publication with imperfect English style to no publication at all.

Concerning "The definitions and restrictions in the first pages lack immediate motivation", motivation is found a) in the application of the early stated terms and b) in the explanations on the restrictions. If, however, you want, per term, motivation - definition - application/commentary, you need to wait for (c).

I know that many papers are expected to be read by only a handful of other researchers. I do, however, think, that this situation can change. Not by motivating necessarily you to read, but by motivating at least a few more interested people to read.

Cassandra, your car example is no exception to the rule that all car examples are flawed;)
uPWarrior
Lives with ko
Posts: 199
Joined: Mon Jan 17, 2011 1:59 pm
Rank: KGS 3 kyu
GD Posts: 0
Has thanked: 6 times
Been thanked: 55 times

Re: Robert Jasiek's Go Theory Research

Post by uPWarrior »

Robert: if go knowledge cannot be used to criticize your papers, then why do you call it Go Theory Research?
I will be more specific. You refuse to acknowledge errors in some of the KO shapes in your paper, arguing that they match your initial definition even though they cannot be formed following logical play. If we cannot bring anything from outside your definitions into the discussion, and if your definitions do not match logical play, why should this be called go research?

Btw, that "theory goes through stages" thing is completely wrong. Factually wrong. A theory is created to explain an empirical observation, it is connected to reality. If it does not match reality, the theory is wrong. Theories do not exist in some sort of ether.
pwaldron
Lives in gote
Posts: 409
Joined: Wed May 19, 2010 8:40 am
GD Posts: 1072
Has thanked: 29 times
Been thanked: 182 times

Re: Robert Jasiek's Go Theory Research

Post by pwaldron »

RobertJasiek wrote:In maths, the purpose of a definition is to use or apply this definition. The purpose is not: to avoid its use or application.


RobertJasiek wrote:There are terms for which
a) I strongly believe my definition to be correct (ko),
b) I have not seen one counter-example since I have written my definition (thickness, if understood to be generalised to include also inside thickness),
c) I try to be a bit better than a random go dictionary entry, but I am aware that more study and quite likely changes to the definition are needed (aji, if understood to be used for the bad possibility variety of the term).


RobertJasiek wrote:pwaldron, this is the fate of models of reality. Until all counter-examples have been proven impossible, a counter-example might possibly be found.


Robert, I'm a little baffled what exactly you think you're doing. In one post you think you're providing a model of reality, yet in another post you think you're doing math and hoping that your work will be extended or applied.

If you're trying to do math then by your own admission there may still be counter-examples lurking around. Real math involves proofs, excluding the possibility of any counter-example rather than just hoping you're right. Right now it looks like you've got what amount to a series of unproven (and maybe unprovable?) conjectures and those aren't strong enough to be extended by other work.

On the other hand if you're modeling reality and going the applied then I have to ask where you think this is going to lead. Thomas Wolf has improved a computer's ability to do tsume-go, along the way making progress on deciding how to prune a widely branching decision tree. The Monte Carlo go people have created a stronger go player, and the CGT researchers have put endgame positions on a firm mathematical footing (with actual proofs). How does a still possibly flawed ko definition help advance...well anything?

Right now this looks very much like someone pretending to be doing archaeology by digging up his backyard and posting about it on his website (or possibly something like this: http://www.suslik.org/Humour/General/general4.html).

Perhaps a succint summary will help clear these confusions from your mind and ours. A common question is to ask for a three sentence "elevator" summary of your work. What is your work and why is it relevant? Three sentences only, and you can't pretend that you have anything stronger than conjectures.
User avatar
Bantari
Gosei
Posts: 1639
Joined: Sun Dec 06, 2009 6:34 pm
GD Posts: 0
Universal go server handle: Bantari
Location: Ponte Vedra
Has thanked: 642 times
Been thanked: 490 times

Re: Robert Jasiek's Go Theory Research

Post by Bantari »

Robert - if I may be so bold here and offer a public advice... it might be a good time for you to bow out of the thread with some graceful 'lets agree to disagree' or 'lets take it in private' or something. People are ganging up on you (as is often the case, unfortunately), tempers are running high, and I don't see any big chance of reaching any agreement with anybody, regardless of who is right or wrong - since nobody seems to listen to nobody, and not its juts a brawl, I think. If you think they are wrong, so be it, just leave it at that.

Just saying...
- Bantari
______________________________________________
WARNING: This post might contain Opinions!!
User avatar
RBerenguel
Gosei
Posts: 1585
Joined: Fri Nov 18, 2011 11:44 am
Rank: KGS 5k
GD Posts: 0
KGS: RBerenguel
Tygem: rberenguel
Wbaduk: JohnKeats
Kaya handle: RBerenguel
Online playing schedule: KGS on Saturday I use to be online, but I can be if needed from 20-23 GMT+1
Location: Barcelona, Spain (GMT+1)
Has thanked: 576 times
Been thanked: 298 times
Contact:

Re: Robert Jasiek's Go Theory Research

Post by RBerenguel »

Bantari wrote:Robert - if I may be so bold here and offer a public advice... it might be a good time for you to bow out of the thread with some graceful 'lets agree to disagree' or 'lets take it in private' or something. People are ganging up on you (as is often the case, unfortunately), tempers are running high, and I don't see any big chance of reaching any agreement with anybody, regardless of who is right or wrong - since nobody seems to listen to nobody, and not its juts a brawl, I think. If you think they are wrong, so be it, just leave it at that.

Just saying...


Oh, don't worry about ganging. I'm done commenting any more here (except for this comment, of course.)
Geek of all trades, master of none: the motto for my blog mostlymaths.net
User avatar
Cassandra
Lives in sente
Posts: 1326
Joined: Wed Apr 28, 2010 11:33 am
Rank: German 1 Kyu
GD Posts: 0
Has thanked: 14 times
Been thanked: 153 times

Re: Robert Jasiek's Go Theory Research

Post by Cassandra »

Dear Robert,

In my opinion, your claim to provide to better insight into "ko strategy" is based on a kind of circular reasoning.

One tiny example from "Life & Death" to make this apparent:


# # # # # # # # # # # # # # # # # # # # # #
# # # # # # # # # # # # # # # # # # # # # #


„Common understanding“: Four empty points in row are alive.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B Alive, a and b are Miai.
$$ +---------------
$$ | . a b . O X .
$$ | O O O O O X .
$$ | X X X X X X .
$$ | . . . . . . .[/go]



# # # # # # # # # # # # # # # # # # # # # #
# # # # # # # # # # # # # # # # # # # # # #

An application of my understanding of your “Ko-methodology”.


# # # # # # # # # # # # # # # # # # # # # #

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B „Locally alive“
$$ +---------------
$$ | . . . . O X .
$$ | O O O O O X .
$$ | X X X X X X .
$$ | . . X . . X .
$$ | X X X X X X .
$$ + . . . . . . .[/go]


Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B „Locally Unsettled“
$$ +---------------
$$ | . 1 . . O X .
$$ | O O O O O X .
$$ | X X X X X X .
$$ | . . X . . X .
$$ | X X X X X X .
$$ + . . . . . . .[/go]


because of A)

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B „Dead“
$$ +---------------
$$ | . X 1 . O X .
$$ | O O O O O X .
$$ | X X X X X X .
$$ | . . X . . X .
$$ | X X X X X X .
$$ + . . . . . . .[/go]


and B)

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W „Alive“
$$ +---------------
$$ | . X 1 . O X .
$$ | O O O O O X .
$$ | X X X X X X .
$$ | . . X . . X .
$$ | X X X X X X .
$$ + . . . . . . .[/go]


Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B „Alive“
$$ +---------------
$$ | . X 2 . O X .
$$ | O O O O O X .
$$ | X X X X X X .
$$ | . . X . . X .
$$ | X X X X X X .
$$ + . . . . . . .[/go]


White pre-empted a local loss.

# # # # # # # # # # # # # # # # # # # # # #

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B „Globally alive“
$$ +-------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . O X . O . O X . O . O |
$$ | O O O O O X O O O X X X O . O |
$$ | O O O O O X X X X O O O O . O |
$$ | X X X X X X X X X O O . O . O |
$$ | . X X . X X O O O O . O O . O |
$$ | X X X X X X O O O O O O O O O |
$$ +-------------------------------+[/go]


Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B „Globally unsettled“
$$ +-------------------------------+
$$ | . 1 . . O X . O . O X . O . O |
$$ | O O O O O X O O O X X X O . O |
$$ | O O O O O X X X X O O O O . O |
$$ | X X X X X X X X X O O . O . O |
$$ | . X X . X X O O O O . O O . O |
$$ | X X X X X X O O O O O O O O O |
$$ +-------------------------------+[/go]


Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B „Alive“
$$ +-------------------------------+
$$ | . X 2 . O X . O . O X . O . O |
$$ | O O O O O X O O O X X X O . O |
$$ | O O O O O X X X X O O O O . O |
$$ | X X X X X X X X X O O . O . O |
$$ | . X X . X X O O O O . O O . O |
$$ | X X X X X X O O O O O O O O O |
$$ +-------------------------------+[/go]


Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B „White wins the game“
$$ +-------------------------------+
$$ | . X O . O X 5 O 3 O X 4 O . O |
$$ | O O O O O X O O O X X X O . O |
$$ | O O O O O X X X X O O O O . O |
$$ | X X X X X X X X X O O . O . O |
$$ | . X X . X X O O O O . O O . O |
$$ | X X X X X X O O O O O O O O O |
$$ +-------------------------------+[/go]


Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B „White + 4“
$$ +---------------------------------+
$$ | . X O . O X X . X . X O O . . O |
$$ | O O O O O X . . . X X X O . . O |
$$ | O O O O O X X X X O O O O . . O |
$$ | X X X X X X X X X O O . O . . O |
$$ | . X X . X X O O O O . O O . . O |
$$ | X X X X X X O O O O O O O O O O |
$$ +---------------------------------+[/go]


White pre-empted a global loss.

# # # # # # # # # # # # # # # # # # # # # #

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B „Globally dead“
$$ +-------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . O X . O . O X . O . O |
$$ | O O O O O X O O O X X X O . O |
$$ | X X X X X X O O O X X X O O O |
$$ | X X X X X X O O O X X X O . O |
$$ | . X X . X X O O O X X X O . O |
$$ | X X X X X X O O O X X X O O O |
$$ +-------------------------------+[/go]


Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B „Globally unsettled“
$$ +-------------------------------+
$$ | . 1 . . O X . O . O X . O . O |
$$ | O O O O O X O O O X X X O . O |
$$ | X X X X X X O O O X X X O O O |
$$ | X X X X X X O O O X X X O . O |
$$ | . X X . X X O O O X X X O . O |
$$ | X X X X X X O O O X X X O O O |
$$ +-------------------------------+[/go]


Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B „Globally unsettled“
$$ +-------------------------------+
$$ | . X . . O X . O . O X 2 O . O |
$$ | O O O O O X O O O X X X O . O |
$$ | X X X X X X O O O X X X O O O |
$$ | X X X X X X O O O X X X O . O |
$$ | . X X . X X O O O X X X O . O |
$$ | X X X X X X O O O X X X O O O |
$$ +-------------------------------+[/go]


Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B „Dead“
$$ +-------------------------------+
$$ | . X 3 . O X . O . O . O O . O |
$$ | O O O O O X O O O . . . O . O |
$$ | X X X X X X O O O . . . O O O |
$$ | X X X X X X O O O . . . O . O |
$$ | . X X . X X O O O . . . O . O |
$$ | X X X X X X O O O . . . O O O |
$$ +-------------------------------+[/go]


Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B „White wins the game“
$$ +-------------------------------+
$$ | . X X . O X . O . O . O O . O |
$$ | O O O O O X O O O . . . O . O |
$$ | X X X X X X O O O . . . O O O |
$$ | X X X X X X O O O . . . O . O |
$$ | . X X . X X O O O . . . O . O |
$$ | X X X X X X O O O . . . O O O |
$$ +-------------------------------+[/go]


White pre-empted a global loss.


# # # # # # # # # # # # # # # # # # # # # #
# # # # # # # # # # # # # # # # # # # # # #

The choice of moves depends on general principles (if you like "strategy") of the game.

"Locally ..." / "Globally ..." does not provide any benefit to this. Nor does the status change within move sequences.
The really most difficult Go problem ever: https://igohatsuyoron120.de/index.htm
Igo Hatsuyōron #120 (really solved by KataGo)
RobertJasiek
Judan
Posts: 6273
Joined: Tue Apr 27, 2010 8:54 pm
GD Posts: 0
Been thanked: 797 times
Contact:

Re: Robert Jasiek's Go Theory Research

Post by RobertJasiek »

uPWarrior, my papers can be commented on (in particular: criticised) in at least two different major manners by referring to: a) the concepts in the papers themselves or b) comparing (a) with knowledge outside (a).

A (ko shape) example is not an error because of not being constructed by nice alternation. The paper allows any position to be studied, whether constructed nicely or not. (Do you complain that 99% of all go problem positions are not constructed nicely? No? Why then do you complain about my examples? So that you want to allow only 1% of all positions so that my paper is worth 99% less because of being allowed to be applied to only 1% of all legal positions?) In summary, it is meaningless to criticise my paper for showing also artificial examples. Instead, it would be meaningful to create another research topic to distinguish "nice" from "awful" example / problem / game positions.

"Logical play" can include a player's passes, while the opponent plays, then the opponent's passes, while the player plays; i.e., each position can be constructed by logical play, and I have proven this many years ago to show that each position can recur in a cycle, if the players "cooperate". What you mean is not "logical play", but is "nice alternating play" for some meaning of "nice". Maybe you mean "strategically perfect play". But do you? After all, this would end in arguing that most actually played games might not be studied, because their positions are not created by perfect play. Being able to study also the bad positions is a great advantage! It allows us to comment on player mistakes at all. And you want to exclude that from go research?!

pwaldron, the maths I am doing when modelling the real world does not need to be without counter-example to be maths. It would be nice if a counter-example did not exist, and even nicer if this could be proven. So far, I have presented positive evidence for my model, while the negative evidence is still very much incomplete. It is the same as with maths models in physics: the currently good models are those for which all positive examples (tests / observations) work, while the negative examples are very incomplete.

We know very many shapes that are non-cyclic (from played games or book diagrams), and the cyclic shapes in my paper.

What is missing is a complete classification of all shapes of all positions and then the theorem relating my ko definition to that classification. With my paper, there is at least this research aim. Before my paper, there was mainly dust.

Why do you think that other work cannot extend mine? It is straightforward: classify all shapes.

You ask how a ko definition is going to contribute to solve go. View it in its context: everything can be defined (see my many other defined go terms), principles / propositions can be applied to the defined things (I have done so with proofs for quite a few propositions; check rec.games.go archives), this approach can be extended to reading and decision making. It is not necessary to see definition-based go theory independently; one can also research in relations between the fields CGT, MC, etc. and definition-based theory.

"What is your work and why is it relevant?" I have answered this before, and it is more than conjectures.

Cassandra, what have your local / global examples to do with my ko paper?
User avatar
Cassandra
Lives in sente
Posts: 1326
Joined: Wed Apr 28, 2010 11:33 am
Rank: German 1 Kyu
GD Posts: 0
Has thanked: 14 times
Been thanked: 153 times

Re: Robert Jasiek's Go Theory Research

Post by Cassandra »

RobertJasiek wrote:Cassandra, what have your local / global examples to do with my ko paper?


Cassandra wrote:An application of my understanding of your “Ko-methodology”.


It shows the result of your paper's methodology, applied on another issue. Should be appealing to you.
The really most difficult Go problem ever: https://igohatsuyoron120.de/index.htm
Igo Hatsuyōron #120 (really solved by KataGo)
RobertJasiek
Judan
Posts: 6273
Joined: Tue Apr 27, 2010 8:54 pm
GD Posts: 0
Been thanked: 797 times
Contact:

Re: Robert Jasiek's Go Theory Research

Post by RobertJasiek »

You apply only a distinction of local versus global and you do so independently of the paper's definitions. In particular, you use a) "global" and "local" in an informal sense, while the paper defines "global-ko-intersection" and "local-ko-intersection" with a formal meaning, and b) "ko strategy" in an informal sense, while the paper defines "strategy" with a formal meaning. Therefore your statement "circular reasoning" is not justified at all.
User avatar
Cassandra
Lives in sente
Posts: 1326
Joined: Wed Apr 28, 2010 11:33 am
Rank: German 1 Kyu
GD Posts: 0
Has thanked: 14 times
Been thanked: 153 times

Re: Robert Jasiek's Go Theory Research

Post by Cassandra »

Dear Robert,

I had neither expected that you would like my application, nor that you would take pleasure in it, nor that you would make the slightest attempt to benefit from it.

Perhaps you can befriend yourself with the thought that as "mistaken", "misunderstood", "misinterpreted", "ugly", "unwordly", "absurd", and "incomplete", as you will value my application example, is the "common world's" evaluation of your Ko-theory paper.

As well as my application will not have caused any increased insight into "Life & Death theory" with you, your Ko-theory paper will not cause any increased insight into "Ko theory" with the "common world". This is because it is "common knowledge" that you would have to choose move A (with a "local gain" of 20 points) instead of move B (with a "local gain" of 10 points) in the case that you were behind on the rest of the board by 5 points, if you ever wanted to win the game. This is true, even if move A comes from "Life & Death", while move B comes from "Endgame".

It makes no sense at all to give this move (or the board-point in your theory paper) the property "global" that it will not achive in the case that you are ahead (or even behind) on the rest of the board by 15 points. As well as you cut move sequences into slices, in a desperate attempt to evaluate every single board-position independently, you cut the above mentioned "common knowledge" (or "common principle" / "common strategy") into slices to base various independent "xyz theory (insight)" on this.


# # # # # # # # # # # # # # # # # # # #

However, all attempts with using analogies to help you understanding the "common world's" problems with your theory paper(s) were in vain.

So I do not expect at all that you will benefit from looking at yourself in the mirror.
The really most difficult Go problem ever: https://igohatsuyoron120.de/index.htm
Igo Hatsuyōron #120 (really solved by KataGo)
RobertJasiek
Judan
Posts: 6273
Joined: Tue Apr 27, 2010 8:54 pm
GD Posts: 0
Been thanked: 797 times
Contact:

Re: Robert Jasiek's Go Theory Research

Post by RobertJasiek »

Cassandra, already in my paper I explain that it determines ko, but does not determine perfect play. You over-interpret my paper if you think that it determined perfect play.
Post Reply