Page 2 of 3
Posted: Tue May 06, 2014 7:43 pm
by EdLee
Hi Krama,
Krama wrote:Now I think I should have connected at r5 but then again I get split in two...
Yes, B is happy to just connect at R5. And no, it is W who gets a broken shape, the opposite of what you think.
Krama wrote:but then white would jump around n5 and then what??
Remember you got this result because you didn't fix the cut at o9.
It has nothing to do with the
peep or whether to connect at R5.
Krama wrote:Why do you think us weaker players do these kind of silly mistakes?
Fighting where fighting is not needed, protecting something that requires no protecting, not protecting something that has a weakness?
Sorry, I cannot tell if you were being rhetorical or not. But literally: we make these mistakes because of problems in our understanding of the basics.
For example, basic shape problems:
-
, missing D6.
-
, throwing good money at bad; not letting go of damaged goods (trying to save every stone); missing the double approach UL corner (missing the big picture).
-
, missing R11.
-
, missing L9 hane.
-
, not connecting at R5, not seeing W's broken shape as a result (and thinking the opposite for B).
Re: Freaking irritating game
Posted: Tue May 06, 2014 8:29 pm
by ez4u
Note that at 33 Black should play the atari at C18. This is a basic idea in fighting; we never forgo this kind of atari. In this case, however, it is more than that because White has made a big mistake. If White connects, Black simply connects at D18 and the corner is dead. White has no choice but to play ko with Black capturing first. The issue for Black is clearly not territory versus influence styles of play. Rather it is the basics of fighting and reading. We can see that Black used 4 seconds to play E16 instead so time management is also an area for improvement.
Posted: Tue May 06, 2014 8:39 pm
by EdLee
ez4u wrote:The issue for Black is clearly not territory versus influence styles of play. Rather it is the basics of fighting and reading.
Exactly. Very common for these levels. Tons and tons of threads with questions about "styles,"
when the real problem is in the basics.
When we are beginners, most of us don't understand this, unless it is pointed out to us.
(And even then, it takes some time to digest.)
Re: Freaking irritating game
Posted: Tue May 06, 2014 11:57 pm
by leichtloeslich
ez4u wrote:If White connects, Black simply connects at D18 and the corner is dead.
Huh?
$$W
$$ +--------------
$$ | . . 3 . . . .
$$ | . O X X . . .
$$ | O O O X . . .
$$ | . O X O 4 . .
$$ | 5 1 X . . . .
$$ | . 2 X . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . O . . .
$$ | . . . X . . .
$$ | . . O O O . .
$$ | . . . . . . .
$$ | . . X X X . .
$$ | . . . . . . .
$$ | . . X . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . .
- Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W
$$ +--------------
$$ | . . 3 . . . .
$$ | . O X X . . .
$$ | O O O X . . .
$$ | . O X O 4 . .
$$ | 5 1 X . . . .
$$ | . 2 X . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . O . . .
$$ | . . . X . . .
$$ | . . O O O . .
$$ | . . . . . . .
$$ | . . X X X . .
$$ | . . . . . . .
$$ | . . X . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . .[/go]
Re: Freaking irritating game
Posted: Wed May 07, 2014 12:04 am
by RBerenguel
leichtloeslich wrote:ez4u wrote:If White connects, Black simply connects at D18 and the corner is dead.
Huh?
$$W
$$ +--------------
$$ | . . 3 . . . .
$$ | . O X X . . .
$$ | O O O X . . .
$$ | . O X O 4 . .
$$ | 5 1 X . . . .
$$ | . 2 X . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . O . . .
$$ | . . . X . . .
$$ | . . O O O . .
$$ | . . . . . . .
$$ | . . X X X . .
$$ | . . . . . . .
$$ | . . X . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . .
- Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W
$$ +--------------
$$ | . . 3 . . . .
$$ | . O X X . . .
$$ | O O O X . . .
$$ | . O X O 4 . .
$$ | 5 1 X . . . .
$$ | . 2 X . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . O . . .
$$ | . . . X . . .
$$ | . . O O O . .
$$ | . . . . . . .
$$ | . . X X X . .
$$ | . . . . . . .
$$ | . . X . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . .[/go]
Throw in 4 to remove the corner eye
Posted: Wed May 07, 2014 12:08 am
by EdLee
$$W (a) and (b) miai
$$ +--------------
$$ | a 4 3 . . . .
$$ | . O X X . . .
$$ | O O O X . 6 .
$$ | . O X O 5 . .
$$ | b 1 X . . . .
$$ | . 2 X . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . O . . .
$$ | . . . X . . .
$$ | . . O O O . .
$$ | . . . . . . .
$$ | . . X X X . .
$$ | . . X O . . .
$$ | . . X O . . .
$$ | . . O . . . .
- Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W (a) and (b) miai
$$ +--------------
$$ | a 4 3 . . . .
$$ | . O X X . . .
$$ | O O O X . 6 .
$$ | . O X O 5 . .
$$ | b 1 X . . . .
$$ | . 2 X . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . O . . .
$$ | . . . X . . .
$$ | . . O O O . .
$$ | . . . . . . .
$$ | . . X X X . .
$$ | . . X O . . .
$$ | . . X O . . .
$$ | . . O . . . .[/go]
$$W
$$ +--------------
$$ | . . 3 . . . .
$$ | . O X X . . .
$$ | O O O X . 6 .
$$ | . O X O 5 . .
$$ | 4 1 X . . . .
$$ | . 2 X . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . O . . .
$$ | . . . X . . .
$$ | . . O O O . .
$$ | . . . . . . .
$$ | . . X X X . .
$$ | . . X O . . .
$$ | . . X O . . .
$$ | . . O . . . .
- Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W
$$ +--------------
$$ | . . 3 . . . .
$$ | . O X X . . .
$$ | O O O X . 6 .
$$ | . O X O 5 . .
$$ | 4 1 X . . . .
$$ | . 2 X . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . O . . .
$$ | . . . X . . .
$$ | . . O O O . .
$$ | . . . . . . .
$$ | . . X X X . .
$$ | . . X O . . .
$$ | . . X O . . .
$$ | . . O . . . .[/go]
Re: Freaking irritating game
Posted: Wed May 07, 2014 12:11 am
by leichtloeslich
simply capture the throw-in, you can't get rid of the eye.
edit:
@EdLee:
$$W
$$ +--------------
$$ | . . 3 . . . .
$$ | . O X X 6 7 .
$$ | O O O X 5 . .
$$ | . O X O . . .
$$ | 4 1 X . . . .
$$ | . 2 X . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . O . . .
$$ | . . . X . . .
$$ | . . O O O . .
$$ | . . . . . . .
$$ | . . X X X . .
$$ | . . . . . . .
$$ | . . X . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . .
- Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W
$$ +--------------
$$ | . . 3 . . . .
$$ | . O X X 6 7 .
$$ | O O O X 5 . .
$$ | . O X O . . .
$$ | 4 1 X . . . .
$$ | . 2 X . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . O . . .
$$ | . . . X . . .
$$ | . . O O O . .
$$ | . . . . . . .
$$ | . . X X X . .
$$ | . . . . . . .
$$ | . . X . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . .[/go]
white can bridge under and black gets overconcentrated.
However, if black throws in and blocks white loses a liberty, so it seems to be ko?
$$W
$$ +--------------
$$ | 5 4 3 6 . . .
$$ | . O X X . . .
$$ | O O O X . . .
$$ | . O X O . . .
$$ | . 1 X . . . .
$$ | . 2 X . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . O . . .
$$ | . . . X . . .
$$ | . . O O O . .
$$ | . . . . . . .
$$ | . . X X X . .
$$ | . . . . . . .
$$ | . . X . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . .
- Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W
$$ +--------------
$$ | 5 4 3 6 . . .
$$ | . O X X . . .
$$ | O O O X . . .
$$ | . O X O . . .
$$ | . 1 X . . . .
$$ | . 2 X . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . O . . .
$$ | . . . X . . .
$$ | . . O O O . .
$$ | . . . . . . .
$$ | . . X X X . .
$$ | . . . . . . .
$$ | . . X . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . .[/go]
If black blocks directly without throwing in, the corner has one more liberty, so maybe w can simply connect?
Not sure, that's the variation I kind of glossed over.
Posted: Wed May 07, 2014 12:28 am
by EdLee
$$W (c) and (d) miai
$$ +----------------
$$ | . . 3 . . . . .
$$ | . O X X 6 . . .
$$ | O O O X 5 7 d .
$$ | . O X O 8 0 . .
$$ | 4 1 X 9 . . . .
$$ | . 2 X c . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . O . . . .
$$ | . . . X . . . .
$$ | . . O O O . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . X X X . . .
$$ | . . X O . . . .
$$ | . . X O . . . .
$$ | . . O . . . . .
- Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W (c) and (d) miai
$$ +----------------
$$ | . . 3 . . . . .
$$ | . O X X 6 . . .
$$ | O O O X 5 7 d .
$$ | . O X O 8 0 . .
$$ | 4 1 X 9 . . . .
$$ | . 2 X c . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . O . . . .
$$ | . . . X . . . .
$$ | . . O O O . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . X X X . . .
$$ | . . X O . . . .
$$ | . . X O . . . .
$$ | . . O . . . . .[/go]
Even if W lives, this result is much better than in the game:
$$W
$$ +--------------
$$ | . . 3 . . . .
$$ | . O X X . . .
$$ | O O O X . . .
$$ | . O X O 4 . .
$$ | 5 1 X . . . .
$$ | . 2 X . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . O . . .
$$ | . . . X . . .
$$ | . . O O O . .
$$ | . . . . . . .
$$ | . . X X X . .
$$ | . . X O . . .
$$ | . . X O . . .
$$ | . . O . . . .
- Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W
$$ +--------------
$$ | . . 3 . . . .
$$ | . O X X . . .
$$ | O O O X . . .
$$ | . O X O 4 . .
$$ | 5 1 X . . . .
$$ | . 2 X . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . O . . .
$$ | . . . X . . .
$$ | . . O O O . .
$$ | . . . . . . .
$$ | . . X X X . .
$$ | . . X O . . .
$$ | . . X O . . .
$$ | . . O . . . .[/go]
Posted: Wed May 07, 2014 12:32 am
by EdLee
$$W (c) and (d) miai
$$ +--------------
$$ | . . 3 . . . . .
$$ | . O X X 8 . . .
$$ | O O O X 5 9 d .
$$ | . O X O 6 0 . .
$$ | 4 1 X 7 . . . .
$$ | . 2 X c . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . O . . . .
$$ | . . . X . . . .
$$ | . . O O O . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . X X X . . .
$$ | . . X O . . . .
$$ | . . X O . . . .
$$ | . . O . . . . .
- Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W (c) and (d) miai
$$ +--------------
$$ | . . 3 . . . . .
$$ | . O X X 8 . . .
$$ | O O O X 5 9 d .
$$ | . O X O 6 0 . .
$$ | 4 1 X 7 . . . .
$$ | . 2 X c . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . O . . . .
$$ | . . . X . . . .
$$ | . . O O O . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . X X X . . .
$$ | . . X O . . . .
$$ | . . X O . . . .
$$ | . . O . . . . .[/go]
Re: Freaking irritating game
Posted: Wed May 07, 2014 12:36 am
by leichtloeslich
EdLee: in your last diagramm 7 at 8 and w bridges under.
Posted: Wed May 07, 2014 12:37 am
by EdLee
leichtloeslich wrote:EdLee: in your last diagramm 7 at 8 and w bridges under.
I know W has the double hane. I can only edit so fast.
It only takes a few seconds to type one sentence. It takes much longer to edit, check variations, edit, etc.
leichtloeslich wrote:white can bridge under and black gets overconcentrated.
Complications:
Re: Freaking irritating game
Posted: Wed May 07, 2014 12:52 am
by Uberdude
EdLee wrote:Even if W lives, this result is much better than in the game:
$$W
$$ +--------------
$$ | . . 3 . . . .
$$ | . O X X . . .
$$ | O O O X . . .
$$ | . O X O 4 . .
$$ | 5 1 X . . . .
$$ | . 2 X . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . O . . .
$$ | . . . X . . .
$$ | . . O O O . .
$$ | . . . . . . .
$$ | . . X X X . .
$$ | . . X O . . .
$$ | . . X O . . .
$$ | . . O . . . .
- Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W
$$ +--------------
$$ | . . 3 . . . .
$$ | . O X X . . .
$$ | O O O X . . .
$$ | . O X O 4 . .
$$ | 5 1 X . . . .
$$ | . 2 X . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . O . . .
$$ | . . . X . . .
$$ | . . O O O . .
$$ | . . . . . . .
$$ | . . X X X . .
$$ | . . X O . . .
$$ | . . X O . . .
$$ | . . O . . . .[/go]
Give the rest of the mistakes Krama is making, this is the most important point (apart from playing the atari initially). First stop playing like a 10 kyu, once you can play like a 1 kyu you can start worrying about playing better than that (if trying to kill is even better which I am not sure of). Against irritating invaders (which I don't actually think this white particularly is, black just played slack bad shapes and made plenty of his own mistakes) playing solid good shape and letting them live whilst you amass more thickness and territory is usually the easy way to win.
Re: Freaking irritating game
Posted: Wed May 07, 2014 1:14 am
by daal
Krama wrote:
It seems that the only way to win in go is to play territorial games, since invading and living in opponent moyo is so easy, while trying to defend your moyo is extremely hard.
I came to exactly the same conclusion. Then I had the following epiphany:
skydyr wrote:The territory advantage comes from the inevitable fighting later: when you have nothing that your opponent can attack, you have a free hand to play in the middle game and endgame.
But later after watching my strategy fail more often than not, I started to realize:
Bill Spight wrote: Actually, that kind of advantage depends upon thickness
Which is where I am now, trying desperately to avoid:
ez4u wrote:The issue for Black is clearly not territory versus influence styles of play. Rather it is the basics of fighting and reading. We can see that Black used 4 seconds to play E16 instead so time management is also an area for improvement.
The thing is, that takes time and effort, whereas changing one's style can be done in a minute.
Re: Freaking irritating game
Posted: Wed May 07, 2014 1:45 am
by Krama
Thank you all for helping me out, how do you suggest I work on my basic shapes? To tell you the truth I never actually studied basic shapes, I just watched other people play (and they made these mistakes) so it kinda is stuck with me. How do I unlearn this? Which books on shapes are good for this, or perhaps I should just study pro games?
Re: Freaking irritating game
Posted: Wed May 07, 2014 1:57 am
by oca