I think black maybe can kill or at least severely constrain white with something like this.Here is a better version of question 1:
White thinks this is the joseki:
...
But he is wrong and made a mistake, but also black let white get away with it. What did white do wrong and how should black have punished?
How much should I avoid learning Josekis as a beginner?
-
supernerd
- Beginner
- Posts: 8
- Joined: Wed May 21, 2014 5:10 am
- Rank: KGS 18 kyu
- GD Posts: 0
- KGS: supernerd
- DGS: supernerd
- Location: Seattle
- Been thanked: 2 times
Re: How much should I avoid learning Josekis as a beginner?
-
Abyssinica
- Lives in gote
- Posts: 660
- Joined: Mon Jan 06, 2014 2:36 am
- Rank: Miserable 4k
- GD Posts: 0
- KGS: STOP STALKING ME
- Has thanked: 25 times
- Been thanked: 124 times
-
Uberdude
- Judan
- Posts: 6727
- Joined: Thu Nov 24, 2011 11:35 am
- Rank: UK 4 dan
- GD Posts: 0
- KGS: Uberdude 4d
- OGS: Uberdude 7d
- Location: Cambridge, UK
- Has thanked: 436 times
- Been thanked: 3718 times
Re: How much should I avoid learning Josekis as a beginner?
No, I mean why play this push atoca wrote:by push, do you meanUberdude wrote:oca, in question 3 your 8 doesn't kill, can you see how to live? Given that why push?like that ?
given that we can live (it's an L+2 group) without it as you showed:
-
Uberdude
- Judan
- Posts: 6727
- Joined: Thu Nov 24, 2011 11:35 am
- Rank: UK 4 dan
- GD Posts: 0
- KGS: Uberdude 4d
- OGS: Uberdude 7d
- Location: Cambridge, UK
- Has thanked: 436 times
- Been thanked: 3718 times
Re: How much should I avoid learning Josekis as a beginner?
Hmm, But black has quite some problems on the outside too, I'm not sure what happens now! There is a simpler move for black 4 that gives an easy good result (better than the joseki for black).supernerd wrote: I think black maybe can kill or at least severely constrain white with something like this.
-
Bill Spight
- Honinbo
- Posts: 10905
- Joined: Wed Apr 21, 2010 1:24 pm
- Has thanked: 3651 times
- Been thanked: 3373 times
Re: How much should I avoid learning Josekis as a beginner?
Since we have moved along, I am not hiding this.
Supernerd's
is quite interesting. Now if 
connects, after 
White is still in trouble.
So I think that White plays and now Black switches to . White can take and live in sente, as in the joseki, but now if White plays , Black can play elsewhere.
Supernerd's
is quite interesting. Now if connects, after White is still in trouble.So I think that White plays
and now Black switches to . White can take and live in sente, as in the joseki, but now if White plays , Black can play elsewhere.The Adkins Principle:
At some point, doesn't thinking have to go on?
— Winona Adkins
Visualize whirled peas.
Everything with love. Stay safe.
At some point, doesn't thinking have to go on?
— Winona Adkins
Visualize whirled peas.
Everything with love. Stay safe.
-
Bill Spight
- Honinbo
- Posts: 10905
- Joined: Wed Apr 21, 2010 1:24 pm
- Has thanked: 3651 times
- Been thanked: 3373 times
Re: How much should I avoid learning Josekis as a beginner?
I like this guy!supernerd wrote:I think black maybe can kill or at least severely constrain white with something like this.Here is a better version of question 1:
White thinks this is the joseki:
...
But he is wrong and made a mistake, but also black let white get away with it. What did white do wrong and how should black have punished?
The Adkins Principle:
At some point, doesn't thinking have to go on?
— Winona Adkins
Visualize whirled peas.
Everything with love. Stay safe.
At some point, doesn't thinking have to go on?
— Winona Adkins
Visualize whirled peas.
Everything with love. Stay safe.
-
Uberdude
- Judan
- Posts: 6727
- Joined: Thu Nov 24, 2011 11:35 am
- Rank: UK 4 dan
- GD Posts: 0
- KGS: Uberdude 4d
- OGS: Uberdude 7d
- Location: Cambridge, UK
- Has thanked: 436 times
- Been thanked: 3718 times
-
Bill Spight
- Honinbo
- Posts: 10905
- Joined: Wed Apr 21, 2010 1:24 pm
- Has thanked: 3651 times
- Been thanked: 3373 times
Re: How much should I avoid learning Josekis as a beginner?
How about this?
Black makes the solid connection with
. If 
takes , then 
at 7, similar to the previous variation. In this variation Black aims at "a".Black's sacrifice looks better than White's, eh?
The Adkins Principle:
At some point, doesn't thinking have to go on?
— Winona Adkins
Visualize whirled peas.
Everything with love. Stay safe.
At some point, doesn't thinking have to go on?
— Winona Adkins
Visualize whirled peas.
Everything with love. Stay safe.
-
Bantari
- Gosei
- Posts: 1639
- Joined: Sun Dec 06, 2009 6:34 pm
- GD Posts: 0
- Universal go server handle: Bantari
- Location: Ponte Vedra
- Has thanked: 642 times
- Been thanked: 490 times
Re: How much should I avoid learning Josekis as a beginner?
My first though was: this guy is putting us on.supernerd wrote:Greetings,
I have heard that double digit kyus should not study Joseki but wait until anywhere from 9k to 1d depending on who you ask. Supposedly it is to avoid the trap of rote learning patterns without really understanding why they work or how context alters their application. (EDIT: I am 19 ky on kgs btw)
I was intending to wait until at least 9k before learning josekis. Unfortunately I accidently learned the basic Joseki for san-san invasion when the oppoenent has a single stone on 4-4, because someone showed me this on kgs. Now I cannot ever unsee it. (I have tried)
Is this a bad thing? I have been able to use this joseki succesfully as both attacker and defender in a couple games, and punish a few opponents who didn't follow the joseki. It is such a basic and intuitive sequence that I feel I really do understand it. Also, know I don't know how I lived without it, since it has been so useful.
I also have begun to involentarily pick up the start of a couple few joseki against the knights jump attack against the hoshi from exposure to this in kgs game reviews. I am tempted to try and learn some of these because I get these attacks alot and usually fumble blindly against them. However, I have been wary because of the above advice.
Today, however, curiosity and the allure of forbidden knowledge got the better of me, and I peeked into my friend's basic book on Joeski for about an hour.This was really interesting but there are so many complex things I see why I should hold off.
However, I think I could still benefit from learning just two or three more of the really simple and common joseki's at my current level, and not harm myself too much.
What do you guys think?
But seriously...
Joseki are patterns of good/optimal/perfect play, and so there is absolutely nothing wrong with learning them. And I don't care weather you are 20k or 5d. All the warnings against joseki that I have seen were with the intent of preventing you from rote memorization, but even Kageyama says you should definitely study it. To me, learning is the same as studying, but different from memorization.
But even beside all this - much of paradigm of eastern-style learning is about observation, duplication, and repetition, often without (initial) understanding - just follow the master and all that - until you become proficient. Memorizing pro games is one of such methods. Teaching moves without in-depth explanations (as in "this move is better" advice, as in most pro commentaries) is another. So even if you memorize it - this should not be really bad, and will certainly benefit you in the long run. Of course, thorough explanation and understanding is often preferable, but beggars can't be choosers, right?
From your perspective, learning a few joseki, or even a lot of joseki, will certainly do not hurt you. Even if you just memorize them - at your level you probably don't know enough to really understand them. I don't either, so in this sense we are in the same shoes. The trick to making it work in your favor is this:
Try to keep an open mind and play each move with an idea, and not only because you memorized it. Even if you have a wrong or incomplete idea - have *some* idea. And then work on refining these ideas and adjusting them in time, including abandoning the unsuccessful ones.
This, I think, is the trick to becoming stronger and preventing falling into the trap of playing only routine, which can really hurt you.
Other than this - as others have said - remember that Go is fun, and if you have fun learning joseki, learn joseki. As long as you have fun, you are doing something right. And you grow.
- Bantari
______________________________________________
WARNING: This post might contain Opinions!!
______________________________________________
WARNING: This post might contain Opinions!!
-
Bill Spight
- Honinbo
- Posts: 10905
- Joined: Wed Apr 21, 2010 1:24 pm
- Has thanked: 3651 times
- Been thanked: 3373 times
Re: How much should I avoid learning Josekis as a beginner?
I like the fighting spirit of . 
One thing that is probably above your pay grade at the moment, is that if Black is secure outside, White in the corner is dead. But, as Uberdude said, Black has problems.
After the exchange, - , looks both ways. 
protects his two stones on the left. But then:
pushes out. Now if 
, 
makes a ladder.
Assuming that the ladder is bad for Black, Black can sacrifice the
stones. In exchange, the 
stones are vulnerable. Here is one variation. Note that 
and 
are sente, making use of the aji of the stones.
. One thing that is probably above your pay grade at the moment, is that if Black is secure outside, White in the corner is dead. But, as Uberdude said, Black has problems.
After the exchange,
- , looks both ways. protects his two stones on the left. But then: pushes out. Now if , makes a ladder.Assuming that the ladder is bad for Black, Black can sacrifice the
stones. In exchange, the stones are vulnerable. Here is one variation. Note that and are sente, making use of the aji of the stones.The Adkins Principle:
At some point, doesn't thinking have to go on?
— Winona Adkins
Visualize whirled peas.
Everything with love. Stay safe.
At some point, doesn't thinking have to go on?
— Winona Adkins
Visualize whirled peas.
Everything with love. Stay safe.
-
Bonobo
- Oza
- Posts: 2225
- Joined: Fri Dec 23, 2011 6:39 pm
- Rank: OGS 13k
- GD Posts: 0
- OGS: trohde
- Universal go server handle: trohde
- Location: Lüneburg Heath, North Germany
- Has thanked: 8263 times
- Been thanked: 925 times
- Contact:
Re: How much should I avoid learning Josekis as a beginner?
Hits the nail on the head, I think.Bantari wrote:[..]
Joseki are patterns of good/optimal/perfect play, and so there is absolutely nothing wrong with learning them. [..] All the warnings against joseki that I have seen were with the intent of preventing you from rote memorization [..] To me, learning is the same as studying, but different from memorization. [..]
There seems to be a common misunderstanding about what Joseki actually are: IMHO (cannot get any humbler than admitting that I’m a measly 13–15 kyu, right?) Joseki are descriptive, not prescriptive, i.e. they describe the best (known) move sequences in a corner, usually for both colours, they do NOT dictate what anybody has to play. BTW, somehow this reminds me of the discussions about descriptive vs. prescriptive grammar I’ve witnessed and read about when I was studying linguistics in one of my former lives.
IOW, Joseki simply describe what happens if both opponents play the best (known) available local moves. (Of course, what really is best depends on the rest of the board and the global goals one has for the game.)
This also is, if I understand correctly, why some Joseki get out of fashion and why other Joseki become popular, namely because today “we” know more about the consequences of some moves resp. move sequences than we did before (this is why I added “known” in parentheses). If players never “deviated” from their known Joseki at the time, no new Joseki would ever have evolved.
Ye Go mavens, do I have a clue?
Greetings, Tom
“The only difference between me and a madman is that I’m not mad.” — Salvador Dali
-
illluck
- Lives in sente
- Posts: 1223
- Joined: Sun Apr 25, 2010 5:07 am
- Rank: OGS 2d
- GD Posts: 0
- KGS: illluck
- Tygem: Trickprey
- OGS: illluck
- Has thanked: 736 times
- Been thanked: 239 times
Re: How much should I avoid learning Josekis as a beginner?
Just saw this picture from Baidu Tieba and thought it was relevant :p
"Should not have taught them this small avalanche joseki T.T"
Edit: This is apparently a WeChat message from a pro. The post is at http://tieba.baidu.com/p/3062090534
"Should not have taught them this small avalanche joseki T.T"
Edit: This is apparently a WeChat message from a pro. The post is at http://tieba.baidu.com/p/3062090534
- Attachments
-
- Small Avalanche.jpg (43.2 KiB) Viewed 4131 times
-
EdLee
- Honinbo
- Posts: 8859
- Joined: Sat Apr 24, 2010 6:49 pm
- GD Posts: 312
- Location: Santa Barbara, CA
- Has thanked: 349 times
- Been thanked: 2070 times
-
moyoaji
- Lives in sente
- Posts: 773
- Joined: Fri Jun 14, 2013 12:53 pm
- Rank: KGS 1 kyu
- GD Posts: 0
- Universal go server handle: moyoaji
- Location: Michigan, USA
- Has thanked: 143 times
- Been thanked: 218 times
Re:
Using my mediocre analysis skills, I'd say that this result is playable by both sides. Neither side seems to have a huge advantage. Yes, black has an extra stone on top, but white has sente. If anything, I think the result of the two joseki on that side lead to that stone being over-concentrated. Perhaps white can pull ahead with a larger move.EdLee wrote:Illuck, that WeChat snapshot is worth much more than the proverbial 1,000 words.
So much interesting stuff !!!
"You have to walk before you can run. Black 1 was a walking move.
I blushed inwardly to recall the ignorant thoughts that had gone through
my mind before, when I had not realized the true worth of Black 1."
-Kageyama Toshiro on proper moves
I blushed inwardly to recall the ignorant thoughts that had gone through
my mind before, when I had not realized the true worth of Black 1."
-Kageyama Toshiro on proper moves
-
EdLee
- Honinbo
- Posts: 8859
- Joined: Sat Apr 24, 2010 6:49 pm
- GD Posts: 312
- Location: Santa Barbara, CA
- Has thanked: 349 times
- Been thanked: 2070 times
I thought about none of that when I saw the photo.moyoaji wrote:I'd say that this result is playable by both sides.
Children's brains are amazing. In recent US Go Congresses, some 200 to 300 people play in the US Open.
Among those, it's probably safe to say there are at least 50 who have played Go for over 10 years (or even 20 years)
who have never seen or played that particular small avalanche variation.
(I'm one of them; by pure coincidence I just happened to look up that variation earlier today,
just a few hours before illuck posted that photo! )
The two little kids look like they are around 6 or 7 or younger.
If they continue to have good pro guidance, they will have encountered
over the next few years thousands and thousands of joseki and life-and-death variations.
And if they stick to it and work hard, over the course of their lifetimes,
they will be able to recall any of these 10,000 to 50,000 or more joseki
and life-and-death variations. (Just like they will be able to recall
some 5,000 to 10,000 Chinese characters for life.)
This is not to say anything about their future Go levels.