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Capturing races

https://www.lifein19x19.com/viewtopic.php?t=10358

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Re: Capturing races

Posted: Mon May 26, 2014 10:24 pm
by RobertJasiek
DrStraw wrote:Correct information is relative to strength.
Truth (and therefore correct information) is absolute. It is possible to perceive / teach incomplete information. Incomplete information does not require incorrectness. In particular, there is no need whatsoever to teach incorrect information such as "an eye kills no eyes" in a position such as this capturing race, where Black has an eye and White has no eyes in the shape of his own string.
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B
$$ +------------
$$ | . X O X . .
$$ | X X O X . .
$$ | X O O X . .
$$ | X O . X . .
$$ | X O . X . .
$$ | X O X X . .
$$ | O O X . . .
$$ | X X X . . .
$$ | . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . .[/go]

Re: Capturing races

Posted: Mon May 26, 2014 11:01 pm
by RBerenguel
For me, "an eye kills no eyes" (even in my 25k days) meant clearly "when one of the groups has an eye, beware!"

Re: Capturing races

Posted: Tue May 27, 2014 2:16 am
by Bill Spight
The proverb in Japanese is me ari me nashi, or, with a slightly free translation, eye vs. no eye. It is just a phrase. It refers to this kind of position.
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B
$$ +------------
$$ | . X O X . .
$$ | X X O X . .
$$ | X . O X . .
$$ | X O O X . .
$$ | X O . X . .
$$ | X O X X . .
$$ | O O X . . .
$$ | X X X . . .
$$ | . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . .[/go]
White is dead by me ari me nashi.

At a more advanced level we can talk about exactly why that is. :)

And at an even more advanced level we can talk about this position.
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B Me ari me nashi
$$ +------------
$$ | . . O X . .
$$ | X X O X . .
$$ | . X O X . .
$$ | . X O X . .
$$ | O X O X . .
$$ | O O O X . .
$$ | . X X X . .
$$ | . . . . . .
$$ | . X . . . .
$$ | . . . , . .[/go]
:)

Re: Capturing races

Posted: Tue May 27, 2014 3:46 am
by DrStraw
RobertJasiek wrote:
DrStraw wrote:Correct information is relative to strength.
Truth (and therefore correct information) is absolute. It is possible to perceive / teach incomplete information. Incomplete information does not require incorrectness. In particular, there is no need whatsoever to teach incorrect information such as "an eye kills no eyes" in a position such as this capturing race, where Black has an eye and White has no eyes in the shape of his own string.
Truth most definitely is not absolute unless you perceive the world as a binary black/white phenomenon. But then, of course, you lose the pleasures of perceiving all the in between shades and all the other colors.

Re: Capturing races

Posted: Tue May 27, 2014 4:18 am
by RobertJasiek
When speaking about capturing races, they are a subproblem of Go, which is a perfect-information game and therefore accessible to distinguishing truth from falsehood AFA the theory of capturing races has already been researched and solved.

Re: Capturing races

Posted: Tue May 27, 2014 7:03 am
by Aidoneus
Bill Spight wrote:The proverb in Japanese is me ari me nashi, or, with a slightly free translation, eye vs. no eye. It is just a phrase. It refers to this kind of position.
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B
$$ +------------
$$ | . X O X . .
$$ | X X O X . .
$$ | X . O X . .
$$ | X O O X . .
$$ | X O . X . .
$$ | X O X X . .
$$ | O O X . . .
$$ | X X X . . .
$$ | . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . .[/go]
White is dead by me ari me nashi.

At a more advanced level we can talk about exactly why that is. :)

And at an even more advanced level we can talk about this position.
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B Me ari me nashi
$$ +------------
$$ | . . O X . .
$$ | X X O X . .
$$ | . X O X . .
$$ | . X O X . .
$$ | O X O X . .
$$ | O O O X . .
$$ | . X X X . .
$$ | . . . . . .
$$ | . X . . . .
$$ | . . . , . .[/go]
:)
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B Me ari me nashi
$$ +------------
$$ | c d O X . .
$$ | X X O X . .
$$ | e X O X . .
$$ | a X O X . .
$$ | O X O X . .
$$ | O O O X . .
$$ | b X X X . .
$$ | . . . . . .
$$ | . X . . . .
$$ | . . . , . .[/go]
If Black to play, a makes an eye, which gives Black the shared liberties in the corner. Even if White plays at d to stop Black from getting a second eye, Black b kills. Essentially, Black a gives him 3 liberties versus White 1 liberty.

If White to play, White a and then Black d gets one eye. But now White cannot play e as it is self atari. So Black owns the shared liberty at e which can be filled after Black plays atari at b. So it looks like Black wins, again. Have I missed something?

Re: Capturing races

Posted: Tue May 27, 2014 7:43 am
by Cassandra
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W Me ari mi nashi ???
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . B . . . O X . |
$$ | . X . X . . X X W W . B O B O . . O . |
$$ | . . X O X X . W W W B B O . O O O . . |
$$ | . X O O O X . X X W . B . O O B . . . |
$$ | . . X X O X . X W W W B B . B B O O . |
$$ | . X . O O O . X X W . . B . B O . . . |
$$ | . O O O . . O O X X W W B O B . . O . |
$$ | O . . X . . . O O X W . B . B B B B B |
$$ | O . . X . . . O X X W . B B B B . O O |
$$ | X O O , . X . O X W W B B O O O O O . |
$$ | X O . O X . . O X W . B O O O . X X X |
$$ | X . . O X . . O X W . B O O X X X O O |
$$ | X X O . X . . O X W . B O . O . X X O |
$$ | X O O X O X . O X W . B B O O O X O O |
$$ | X O X . . X . O X W B . W X X X O O O |
$$ | . X X , X . . O X W W W W X O X O O X |
$$ | . X . . O X . O X X X X X . O X X O X |
$$ | . X X . . . X O O O O O O X O X . O X |
$$ | X X . . . . . . . . . . O X X X . O . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]

Re: Capturing races

Posted: Tue May 27, 2014 7:50 am
by Bill Spight
Aidoneus wrote:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B Me ari me nashi
$$ +------------
$$ | c d O X . .
$$ | X X O X . .
$$ | e X O X . .
$$ | a X O X . .
$$ | O X O X . .
$$ | O O O X . .
$$ | b X X X . .
$$ | . . . . . .
$$ | . X . . . .
$$ | . . . , . .[/go]
If Black to play, a makes an eye, which gives Black the shared liberties in the corner. Even if White plays at d to stop Black from getting a second eye, Black b kills. Essentially, Black a gives him 3 liberties versus White 1 liberty.

If White to play, White a and then Black d gets one eye. But now White cannot play e as it is self atari. So Black owns the shared liberty at e which can be filled after Black plays atari at b. So it looks like Black wins, again. Have I missed something?
Well, you haven't said what happens if White starts at "d", but I think that's easy for you. :)

What conclusion do you draw from the fact that Black wins regardless of who plays first?

Re: Capturing races

Posted: Tue May 27, 2014 8:22 am
by Aidoneus
Bill Spight wrote:
Aidoneus wrote:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B Me ari me nashi
$$ +------------
$$ | c d O X . .
$$ | X X O X . .
$$ | e X O X . .
$$ | a X O X . .
$$ | O X O X . .
$$ | O O O X . .
$$ | b X X X . .
$$ | . . . . . .
$$ | . X . . . .
$$ | . . . , . .[/go]
If Black to play, a makes an eye, which gives Black the shared liberties in the corner. Even if White plays at d to stop Black from getting a second eye, Black b kills. Essentially, Black a gives him 3 liberties versus White 1 liberty.

If White to play, White a and then Black d gets one eye. But now White cannot play e as it is self atari. So Black owns the shared liberty at e which can be filled after Black plays atari at b. So it looks like Black wins, again. Have I missed something?
Well, you haven't said what happens if White starts at "d", but I think that's easy for you. :)

What conclusion do you draw from the fact that Black wins regardless of who plays first?
Sure, White d, Black a for an eye and now Black owns the shared liberty at c.

I figured, but I guess did not state explicitly, Black wins because White cannot prevent him from getting an eye.

I love doing tesuji. I had no trouble doing the problems included with SmartGo at first, but now I am up to those graded 8k, and my success rate at reading the full answers is down to about 1/3 or 1/4. I probably recognize the key first move better than 1/2 the time, though I am often unable to visualize the correct response to some defense, or even completely overlook some defense. But I am nothing if not persistent! Thank you for your feedback. :D

Re: Capturing races

Posted: Tue May 27, 2014 11:43 am
by Bill Spight
Aidoneus wrote:
Bill Spight wrote:
What conclusion do you draw from the fact that Black wins regardless of who plays first?
I figured, but I guess did not state explicitly, Black wins because White cannot prevent him from getting an eye.
Sorry, I was fishing for a simpler answer. White is dead. :)
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