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Re: #236 emerus vs Loons
Posted: Fri Jun 13, 2014 10:52 pm
by Loons
$$cm11 Black: 0 , White: 0
Click Here To Show Diagram Code [go]$$cm11 Black: 0 , White: 0
Well, I found this joseki on
josekipedia , however I am diverging from it here.
The plan is to take an extension with
in sente and then get an extension from thickness / second wing for my enclosure at
.
From there I want to aim at invading bottom left to maintain parity in corners ; make some kind of sabaki bottom right and try and win a moyo game.
Not sure how to continue around 'a', maybe 'a''s fine.
$$cm11 Black: 0 , White: 0
Click Here To Show Diagram Code [go]$$cm11 Black: 0 , White: 0
Re: #236 emerus vs Loons
Posted: Fri Jun 13, 2014 11:17 pm
by emerus
$$cm11 Black: 0 , White: 0
Click Here To Show Diagram Code [go]$$cm11 Black: 0 , White: 0
Black is compromising instead of fighting. I'm very satisfied locally.
Black doesn't have much continuation in the area but he kind of needs both an extension on the top and at r12 but locally, it looks like white has strong follow-ups.
$$cm1 Black: 0 , White: 0
Click Here To Show Diagram Code [go]$$cm1 Black: 0 , White: 0
Defending the top looks really slow.
$$cm1 Black: 0 , White: 0
Click Here To Show Diagram Code [go]$$cm1 Black: 0 , White: 0
Re: #236 emerus vs Loons
Posted: Fri Jun 13, 2014 11:29 pm
by Loons
$$cm11 Black: 0 , White: 0
Click Here To Show Diagram Code [go]$$cm11 Black: 0 , White: 0
(Finalized comment edition)
As planned : I will try and gain some perspective before my next move, though.
Edit
In an attempt to
vindicate my existing choices research this position, I found:
This relatively comparable position that arises:
$$cm11 fig 1
Click Here To Show Diagram Code [go]$$cm11 fig 1
In a similar vein:
$$Wcm1 fig 2 + white next moves
Click Here To Show Diagram Code [go]$$Wcm1 fig 2 + white next moves
Compared to the fig 1, white gained about six points and some aji on top at the expense of top being sealed.
Cf. fig 2, white gained about 6 points at expense of sente; perhaps a shred more invasion aji on top.
Black's shape on top is worse though not hurting for liberties. I think an extension on top is comparatively urgent, though ignoring an approach at bottom feels a touch unneccessarily desperate.
figs 3 & 4
$$Wcm1 fig 3 : Black's potential followup at the triangle is tantalizing
Click Here To Show Diagram Code [go]$$Wcm1 fig 3 : Black's potential followup at the triangle is tantalizing$$Wcm1 fig 4
Click Here To Show Diagram Code [go]$$Wcm1 fig 4
Re: #236 emerus vs Loons
Posted: Sat Jun 14, 2014 2:11 am
by emerus
$$cm11 Black: 0 , White: 0
Click Here To Show Diagram Code [go]$$cm11 Black: 0 , White: 0
Possible moves:
$$cm11 Black: 0 , White: 0
Click Here To Show Diagram Code [go]$$cm11 Black: 0 , White: 0
As I mentioned before, starting a fight with g16 would be my over-the-board move. I'd play it relatively quickly to conserve time. That is not an issue here so let me break down the position.
Profit areas: Lower corners Open potential: Blacks potential on the top and right side, open bottom side Weaknesses: r10 and g17 potential
Now, my logical first step is to determine which of these is the largest. I will identify my choices for each area and then attempt to judge them. Going in reverse order of my instinctual judgement. (Top moyo>Right>Corners>Bottom) I will dismiss the lower left corner and approaching on the bottom(a) outright.
$$Wcm1 :b8: on the top would be complicated
Click Here To Show Diagram Code [go]$$Wcm1 :b8: on the top would be complicated
This way is better for black. Black's moyo is solid and large. White has some cash and the chance to attack black on the bottom. I usually over-estimate the depth of moyos in the center of the board but even considering that - I estimate black +4-5. I wonder if this is actually an accurate estimate for players who are stronger at reducing frameworks?
$$Wcm1
Click Here To Show Diagram Code [go]$$Wcm1
Worse than the previous diagram.
$$Wcm1 Can white gain in sente?
Click Here To Show Diagram Code [go]$$Wcm1 Can white gain in sente?$$Wcm1 Early complications.
Click Here To Show Diagram Code [go]$$Wcm1 Early complications.
I spent almost two hours on this position. Mostly about the first two diagrams. I really want to play out the game following
at r6 as that style of game is more appealing. I am often fighting because I'm pessimistic in judging my position. Should I temper my pessimism and try to play these uncomfortable positions I keep considering? That might be the best way for me to try new ideas.
Re: #236 emerus vs Loons
Posted: Sat Jun 14, 2014 2:56 am
by Loons
$$cm11 Black: 0 , White: 0
Click Here To Show Diagram Code [go]$$cm11 Black: 0 , White: 0
Well! The best laid plans of mice and all that. I think emerus will either leave this group heavy or not extend from the splitting stone on the right : Both not bad for me.
Locally, I wonder if I have a device:
$$Wcm1 Black: 0 , White: 0
Click Here To Show Diagram Code [go]$$Wcm1 Black: 0 , White: 0$$Wcm1 Black: 0 , White: 0
Click Here To Show Diagram Code [go]$$Wcm1 Black: 0 , White: 0
Also there is some kind of shape problem here
$$Bcm1 Black: 0 , White: 0
Click Here To Show Diagram Code [go]$$Bcm1 Black: 0 , White: 0
Re: #236 emerus vs Loons
Posted: Sat Jun 14, 2014 3:05 am
by emerus
$$cm11 Black: 0 , White: 0
Click Here To Show Diagram Code [go]$$cm11 Black: 0 , White: 0
Re: #236 emerus vs Loons
Posted: Sat Jun 14, 2014 3:16 am
by Loons
$$cm21 Black: 0 , White: 0
Click Here To Show Diagram Code [go]$$cm21 Black: 0 , White: 0
Re: #236 emerus vs Loons
Posted: Sat Jun 14, 2014 3:49 am
by emerus
$$cm21 Black: 0 , White: 0
Click Here To Show Diagram Code [go]$$cm21 Black: 0 , White: 0
Posted: Sat Jun 14, 2014 3:49 am
by EdLee
First feeling:
seems terrible:
bumps head into wall;
forces broken shape on himself (Black);
reduces own libs;
makes a heavy group;
runs damaged stone/throws good money at bad;
bad shape/bad basics;
starts a new weak group when W already has
Posted: Sat Jun 14, 2014 3:57 am
by EdLee
Posted: Sat Jun 14, 2014 4:01 am
by EdLee
Forced ?
$$B
Click Here To Show Diagram Code [go]$$B
Re: #236 emerus vs Loons
Posted: Sat Jun 14, 2014 4:02 am
by Loons
I'm sleeping on this one.
I have been sniped by EdLee
Posted: Sat Jun 14, 2014 4:05 am
by EdLee
emerus wrote: I think I'm taking advantage here.
I'm thinking the opposite.
Loons wrote: I wonder if I can exchange C16 now?
I think B should save it;
still has aji -- B still has other choices locally.
Re:
Posted: Sat Jun 14, 2014 4:08 am
by Loons
Oh, yeah, I was going to talk about that. I wasn't satisfied here. Though now I lay it out so to speak it doesn't look so bad : But black will make no particular points on the top, white seems hard to attack, white can tenuki back to right.
$$Bcm21 Black: 0 , White: 0
Click Here To Show Diagram Code [go]$$Bcm21 Black: 0 , White: 0
Sniped by Ed again (but not relevant to me).
Re: #236 emerus vs Loons
Posted: Sat Jun 14, 2014 4:15 am
by Loons
$$cm21 Black: 0 , White: 0
Click Here To Show Diagram Code [go]$$cm21 Black: 0 , White: 0
Or maybe I will move already.
Honestly I couldn't help myself, it's just such a pretty move. (Cue misread).
Edit:
Also cutting at H16 directly may be unsatisfactory.
$$cm21 What is black doing
Click Here To Show Diagram Code [go]$$cm21 What is black doing
in sente and then get an extension from thickness / second wing for my enclosure at 
.
at r6 as that style of game is more appealing. I am often fighting because I'm pessimistic in judging my position. Should I temper my pessimism and try to play these uncomfortable positions I keep considering? That might be the best way for me to try new ideas.
still has aji -- B still has other choices locally.