Life In 19x19

Loons wrote:@Bantari
I can't help but point out neither 12 nor 10 would be on a 19x19 board. So nothing but single-digit numbers for coordinates on normal board sizes would be an advantage.

Ah, but you don't have "nothing but single-digit coordinates". In the present system you go from 1..9 and then continue with 10..19. In the new system you would go from 9..0 and then continue with -1...-9. Either way you need a second "sign" - be it a '1' or an '-'. You simply cannot represent 19 lines with only 10 symbols, you need some kind of addition, either more symbols or more (decimal?) places.

As for you pointing out that there would be no 12, point taken.
But (almost) the same could have been said about somebody writing '9' or '3'. There is still less definition to that under new system than under old.

I was gripped by this while writing java code to rotate boards, so. I do think it is a more elegant and symmetrical system, and go is to me a very elegant and symmetrical game. Compared to labelling one of the axis with letters a-t (except for i, most of the time) and the highest magnitude number possible. I would still put coordinates along the edges of the board, were I to make one. Hey, I should.

As I said, for computers you use the systems which are best for what they do, translating from system to system is a trivial matter in this case. I can imagine a single program could use multiple different systems to internalize the data, depending on the task at hand, and then translating from one to the other for the clarity of algorithms.

In your example, rotation of boards, I can see where the digints-only tengen-based system would be more efficient and much easier to code. But then - have a simple (hard-coded even) conversion matrix and you can move back-and-forth between the system in a blink. I would assume that some less trivial tasks, like reading/writing existing sgf files, could be done much easier if you used the existing system. Just to see a different example.

As you point out, it's trivial to convert between systems and wrt code it's syntactical sugar. To me it seems more clear where -5, 7 is than... E17, and its relationship to 5, -7 'P3'. Though it takes a moment to adjust mentally to edge=+/- 9 (not 1, a, 19, and t).

It's funny, nowhere in this has anyone yet mentioned my irritation that Q is the 17th letter of the alphabet but only the 16th column on the go board. Obviously I know _why_ "i" is absent, but I still get occasionally line-jumped when mentally processing the letter co-ordinates from J onwards

@topazg: Do you actually know the ordinals of the letters of the alphabet off the top of your head? I didn't before I played Go (would just count A-B-C-D in my head), now if you ask me what number T is I'd think of a Go board and say 19 oh yeah plus 1. Go makes me think K is 10 .

Uberdude wrote:@topazg: Do you actually know the ordinals of the letters of the alphabet off the top of your head? I didn't before I played Go (would just count A-B-C-D in my head), now if you ask me what number T is I'd think of a Go board and say 19 oh yeah plus 1. Go makes me think K is 10 .

Yeah, I have a few benchmarks I work from, like M and N are 13 and 14, R is 18, V is 22, but I messed around with letter cryptography and other things on a simple level as a kid, and they just sort of stuck

topazg wrote:

Uberdude wrote:@topazg: Do you actually know the ordinals of the letters of the alphabet off the top of your head? I didn't before I played Go (would just count A-B-C-D in my head), now if you ask me what number T is I'd think of a Go board and say 19 oh yeah plus 1. Go makes me think K is 10 .

Yeah, I have a few benchmarks I work from, like M and N are 13 and 14, R is 18, V is 22, but I messed around with letter cryptography and other things on a simple level as a kid, and they just sort of stuck

Doesn't help people who do not use the English alphabet. Most countries, even if they use a Latin-based alphabet, have different letters.

DrStraw wrote:

topazg wrote:

Uberdude wrote:@topazg: Do you actually know the ordinals of the letters of the alphabet off the top of your head? I didn't before I played Go (would just count A-B-C-D in my head), now if you ask me what number T is I'd think of a Go board and say 19 oh yeah plus 1. Go makes me think K is 10 .

Yeah, I have a few benchmarks I work from, like M and N are 13 and 14, R is 18, V is 22, but I messed around with letter cryptography and other things on a simple level as a kid, and they just sort of stuck

Doesn't help people who do not use the English alphabet. Most countries, even if they use a Latin-based alphabet, have different letters.

And many of them, have the "extra" letters at the end of alphabet (e.g. Finnish alphabet is ABCDEFGHIJKLMNOPQRSTUVWXYZÅÄÖ), so the alphabet used for coordinates is exactly the same. I believe the same is true for Swedish, Danish, Norwegian and German, at least.

Loons wrote: To me it seems more clear where -5, 7 is than... E17...

Not to me. E17 looks much more individual. When I look at -5, 7, I don't immediately know which is the vertical coordinate and which the horizontal. This system would leave me regularly confused.

Anyone prefer the numbering used on HNG? star points on 4, 10, 16, read horizontally first, then vertically, from the top left?

I notice that the demo boards usually have Latin numbers across the top and Kanji numbers (ichi, ni, san, ... ) on the left.

I find it quite natural to think of the stars as (4, 4), (10, 4), (16, 4), (4, 10), (10, 10), (16, 10), (4, 16), (10, 16), (16, 16).

I find it easier to count forwards and backwards through numbers instead of starting at 'Q' on the star and thinking "what's two letters before 'Q'", for instance.

tj86430 wrote: And many of them, have the "extra" letters at the end of alphabet (e.g. Finnish alphabet is ABCDEFGHIJKLMNOPQRSTUVWXYZÅÄÖ), so the alphabet used for coordinates is exactly the same. I believe the same is true for Swedish, Danish, Norwegian and German, at least.

Doesn't happen in Spanish or Catalan, I guess neither in French (Catalan and French for Ç, Catalan for Ŀ, Spanish for Ñ and for CH, although I think the latter is no longer a "letter")

daal wrote:

Loons wrote: To me it seems more clear where -5, 7 is than... E17...

Not to me. E17 looks much more individual. When I look at -5, 7, I don't immediately know which is the vertical coordinate and which the horizontal. This system would leave me regularly confused.

Standard coordinate rules apply, either (X,Y) or row-column, so, it's essentially the same...

In any case, coordinates are what they are.

RBerenguel wrote:

daal wrote:

Loons wrote: To me it seems more clear where -5, 7 is than... E17...

Not to me. E17 looks much more individual. When I look at -5, 7, I don't immediately know which is the vertical coordinate and which the horizontal. This system would leave me regularly confused.

Standard coordinate rules apply, either (X,Y) or row-column, so, it's essentially the same...

In any case, coordinates are what they are.

You're missing my point. I, and perhaps others whose last encounter with graphs was 30 yrs ago, don't quickly remember what standard coordinate rules are. that means I have to think about the meaning of -5,7 whereas I don't need to think about the meaning of E17, because the letters and numbers are written (for example on kgs) on the board. If this coordinate system were to be adopted, it would add another layer of thought to what is already a difficult enough process.

I'd assume if this coordinates were used, they would also be printed/shown on boards. So, no need to add an extra layer of thinking.

RBerenguel wrote:I'd assume if this coordinates were used, they would also be printed/shown on boards. So, no need to add an extra layer of thinking.

Sorry about nitpicking, but then there would be four -5s and four 7s on the board and I think that I would still regularly not immediately know which coordinate was meant.

Interesting, unless I'm mistaken, in Japan (and HnG) the origin is in the upper left corner, and Kanji are used top to bottom while arabic numerals are used left to right. You can see it on An Younggil 9p's GGG photo.

Shown up to ten:

---01 02 03 04 05 06 07 08 09 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19
一
二
三
四
五
六
七
八
九
十
十一
十二
十三
十四
十五
十六
十八
十九

Also, I think that because westerners are used to using the Latin alphabet coordinates it would of course seem that something like, say, "Q4" is more recognisable than "6,-6", but ask a Japanese guy who can't speak basic English (not that many exist) and primarily used the above system for 20 years which system is easier to use, "Q4" or "6,-6" and I think you'll get a quick answer.

I think that there are "bespoke" situations if I may put it that way, where the tengen based coordinates are clearly superior, or maybe it's just your preference (for example I making a bot and want to install a pro game database like GoGod to give it some killer opening moves, I'd use this system. Maybe I'd do that in the Future.)

Why don't you try the above system? You might find it about as easy to use as numbers at first, but after a short while become quite used to it.

Overall,
1: This system is useful an elegant in certain situations
2: We make a big deal about coordinates, too much computer go

PS: Don't say "negative six, six" but "dash--six, six".