Life In 19x19

Posted: **Sun Jan 11, 2015 9:57 am**

Bill Spight wrote:
PeterN wrote:This is something I get a lot, lose a few games in a row due to obvious mistakes (at least in retrospect) and it quickly turns into a self fulfilling cycle of demented agression causing me to lose more and go more on tilt. Even if I win a game it doesn't help as then I go further into it because I know full well I shouldn't have won that game!

Only way out of it is to sleep I find.
"Sleep that knits up the ravell'd sleeve of care,"
-- Macbeth

O soothest Sleep! if so it please thee, close
In midst of this thine hymn my willing eyes
-- To sleep

Posted: **Sun Jan 11, 2015 11:50 am**

The Scottish Play

Posted: **Sun Jan 11, 2015 6:07 pm**

should be ok to get your opponent to tilt unless he plays the http://senseis.xmp.net/?NuclearTesuji ...

Posted: **Tue Jan 13, 2015 8:50 am**

I like to pause when the game is going well, because that's the most dangerous part. Some people run around or do pushups.

I agree with Bill. Sports psychology is very advanced in this area. Make friends with your local coach.

Or just quit blitz...

Posted: **Tue Jan 13, 2015 9:43 am**

I used to play quite a lot of online poker. I found that typing "tee hee" after winning a hand unexpectedly (preferably through a misclick) was pretty effective in induing the opponent to tilt.

I suspect there's a live/online split for tilt. I personally would find it hard to tilt live, either at GO or at poker, but can imagine it happening pretty easily online. After a sufficiently bad beat, I would go for a quick walk to clear my head, do deep breathing exercises etc.

For online Go, I don't try to induce tilt in opponents - I am far more gentlemanly than at poker. I adjust my ethical stance to be in line with the standard expected in the game I am playing.

Posted: **Wed Jan 14, 2015 3:57 am**

While I can not say anything about Poker, I can sure say that tilting and geting people to Tilt is a thing in Magic (the trading card game) tournaments and something you need to handle.

It also can be applied in some other boardgames, I certanly have gotten the better of people by doing unawaited opening moves in Puerto Rico or Powergrid, but then it was against people I know are way to set in how they think. Of course in some cases it can be seen as on a grey scale of morality, and I guess in thoose cases it is about why and who you are playing. (Also nobody done Nuclear Tesjui, or table flip as it is called with thoose games over that. I seen it happen in a Powergrid game though)

However in Go, I assume you will lose to much on doing something like that. Though I guess mirror-go as a newish player against a newish player is close to that,

Posted: **Wed Jan 14, 2015 5:18 am**

Actually, some people give handicaps and then do a weird, unreasonable and actually very bad opening, but because their weaker opponent has no idea what to do, they will founder and lose very badly.

It's not merely a trick play, it can really disrupt the weaker player.

Things like doing the 3-3 invasion in EVERY corner, playing 5-5 or 2-3, or 5-4 as first move at 4-4 stones.

Though, this sort of thing feels more like plain harassment to me. They're legal moves, but the only reason they are used is because the stronger player seeks to mess with the weaker player's head.

Posted: **Wed Jan 14, 2015 6:33 am**

tentano wrote:Actually, some people give handicaps and then do a weird, unreasonable and actually very bad opening,

Uhm. I’m afraid I may be one of that “some people” whenever I play against HC.

but because their weaker opponent has no idea what to do, they will founder and lose very badly.

It's not merely a trick play, it can really disrupt the weaker player.

Pardon me? IF I play that way, it doesn’t feel to me like “trick play”, it just seems to be a way to win even though I’m playing against an overwhelming number of B stones.

Things like doing the 3-3 invasion in EVERY corner,

Okay, that’s probably rare for me …

playing 5-5 or 2-3, or 5-4 as first move at 4-4 stones.

… but 5-5 and 5-4 I have done before, usually because of my megalomaniac ambitions regarding a huge moyo in the centre and/or a side. (See? The “and” in “and/or” proves the megalomania, no?

)

Though, this sort of thing feels more like plain harassment to me.

I know how it feels since I’ve also experienced it the other way ’round, but I do NOT take them personally, as in “the other player is evil person and has something against me personally”, but rather like “Oh, now I must fight to win. What a (not) surprise.”

They're legal moves, but the only reason they are used is because the stronger player seeks to mess with the weaker player's head.

This is merely an assumption, and IMHO it is tunnel vision: when I’m drowning deep down in the well, all I can see is that tiny circle of sky above me, and the high walls all around me.

Re: “only reason they are used is because the stronger player seeks to mess with the weaker player's head” — Couldn’t it just as well be that the other player is … desperate? There’s also this proverb that says “if you are behind, try to complicate the game”. And White is ALWAYS behind in the beginning when White plays against HC stones. The difference shrinks, of course, as the game progresses, but don’t ever believe that it is a cheesecake for a stronger W player to play a B player with appropriate HC settings.

Posted: **Wed Jan 14, 2015 8:14 am**

Bonobo wrote:Couldn’t it just as well be that the other player is … desperate? There’s also this proverb that says “if you are behind, try to complicate the game”. And White is ALWAYS behind in the beginning when White plays against HC stones. The difference shrinks, of course, as the game progresses, but don’t ever believe that it is a cheesecake for a stronger W player to play a B player with appropriate HC settings.

I don't feel I need to play a deliberately inane opening to win a handicap game, though. If I spot a weak underbelly, I'll rend it apart, but in the first few moves I don't think I've ever been able to tell. Usually I can just wait for a joseki mistake, a reading error or a failure to realize it's time to tenuki. They're the same mistakes I make when taking handicap, or when playing an even game ...

Opening with desperate moves seems rather silly when the handicap stones are there because the weaker opponent could not win a fair fight. If the correct handicap has been set, there should be no need at all for any desperate antics.

There's still no "moral" reason to forbid it though, I'm not trying to make that argument at all. I'm just saying it works partially because it disrupts a player's state of mind.

Posted: **Wed Jan 14, 2015 12:35 pm**

tentano wrote:I don't feel I need to play a deliberately inane opening to win a handicap game, though.

1. Good for you that you don’t need it.

2. “deliberately inane” again is pure assumption. What may seem so through tunnel vision might completely different from the other side.

[..]

Opening with desperate moves seems rather silly

… to YOU.

when the handicap stones are there because the weaker opponent could not win a fair fight.

Nevertheless there’s the psychological aspect of being confronted with Nine Black Ninjas.

If the correct handicap has been set, there should be no need at all for any desperate antics.

“should be” … from your perspective, perhaps.

There's still no "moral" reason to forbid it though, I'm not trying to make that argument at all.

Well, “should be” is quite morally speaking, no?

(I only know this because I all too often catch myself spilling moralinic acid. Which you are NOT doing here, BTW

)

I'm just saying it works partially because it disrupts a player's state of mind.

Mh… there’s this friend of mine who says “Bah, trick play again!” every time he loses a game, or even just when his opponent plays a move to which he doesn’t know the answer.

________________

And then I thought that the whole Go thing actually IS about the players’ state of mind — if it were about intelligence, I’d give it up

Posted: **Wed Jan 14, 2015 1:09 pm**

Even if your opponent plays a strange opening the same principles apply.

Don't play near thickness.
Play sente before defending.
Urgent before big.

By playing "questionable" moves you are giving the weaker opponent a chance to win a fair fight. Because if they are able to read through your overplays, they would gain a great advantage.

You could argue that by playing safe moves and taking all the big points you create an unfair advantage because a weaker opponent cannot see them. And the weaker opponent is unable to handle with invading a moyo.

It's all just different learning opportunities. If a player doesn't review I doubt they would be able to find their direction of play mistakes easier than they would find their fighting mistakes.

Now if the weaker player had a teacher I think the teacher would prefer "questionable" moves because those are like free tsumego problems with a more solid right answer. This move is wrong because you can cut here and black is in a bad position. Whereas the teacher might have a harder time explaining to the student more abstract concepts like this move was slow because you played too close to thickness, this move is the wrong direction because the other side is bigger.

Posted: **Wed Jan 14, 2015 1:21 pm**

Now, I talk big, but just now I lost one of those handicap games where I didn't open with trick moves.

So it's not like I have the perfect strategy, I just have a preferred one.

Posted: **Wed Jan 14, 2015 2:20 pm**

Everytime I review handicap games with pros they say the same thing.

"My opponent could've played this way to handle the situation, but then I wouldn't be giving them X amount of stones."

Although personally, I think it's best to play reasonably. But that reasonableness changes with how many stones we're giving right?

Posted: **Wed Jan 14, 2015 2:38 pm**

While there's nothing wrong with playing trick moves as a teaching mechanism, if you're playing a 9-stone game as white to win at all costs, you're doing it wrong.

Posted: **Wed Jan 14, 2015 5:04 pm**

skydyr wrote:[..] if you're playing a 9-stone game as white to win at all costs, you're doing it wrong.

Well, there exist online (handicap) tournaments where exactly this can happen, it’s not about games that should actually be teaching games.

Life In 19x19

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