Life In 19x19

Bantari wrote:Yes, this is exactly what it means. And in my book, if you put higher priority on your hobby than on your own family and your own future, your priorities are wrong. And you will hear me say (or at least make me think) what I said above: you are either young, or naive, or whatever... selfish maybe?

I think we'd better be clear here. You said:

Bantari wrote:Programming is my life.

This, combined with the above, seems to suggest that to you, putting priority in programming equates to putting priority on your family and on your future. I don't see it this way. I spend significant quality time with my family, and I also think about my future. But not because of programming. Just because I prioritize go above programming does not mean I prioritize go over my family. In fact, if go reduces my stress, and allows for me to be happy, I'd say that it is more beneficial for my family life than my programming job, which can be stressful.

To me, there is one thing that programming buys me, which go does not: money. But if I can still support my family, spend quality time with them, and live a happy life... I fail to see how this is selfish.

I inferred from the "10 hour days" comment that he's talking about someone sinking (long term) full time work hours into go. We all do it at weekend tournaments but if you were doing this during the week it'd be hard for it not to be affecting your family life if you're settled down with kids. Doubly so if you were fitting it around a work schedule. If you were in your early twenties and on break from college without a need to work for the summer then, eh, more power to you?

I've seen people do this, not with go, and be gone every evening and most of every weekend pursuing hobbies with the wife and kids left at home. I don't approve of such personally.

Well, I think there's something to be said for where your heart is, where your thoughts are, and what you are really passionate about in life. These things all contribute to what your life "is".

To me, the fact that you might have to be physically at your office for 10 hours in a day doesn't mean that that's what your life "is". In the same way, just because I have to pay a lot of money toward taxes doesn't mean that my life is about taxes. These are just things I do, since it's the way that society works. I don't think they define who I am, unless it's where my passion is.

Matlab Programming is a hammer, go is an extremely fancy spec of nail.

LokBuddha wrote:Which one is harder, Programming or Go, in term of learning progress and time to become competent say 1d amateur in Go as in Programming? from the perspective of programmer and non programmer.

Why do you want to know? You might get some better answers...

I feel that I can be more creative when programming than when playing Go.

Kirby wrote:

Bantari wrote:Programming is my life.

This, combined with the above, seems to suggest that to you, putting priority in programming equates to putting priority on your family and on your future.

It does not mean that at all.
Personally, I put priority on my fimily and my future, and programming is the means I chose to secure that future. Other people might have chosen different paths, its cool. But I seriously don't see how a mature and responsible person can have much different priorities.

Go is just a game, and for pretty much all of us here - its only a hobby, something we enjoy and do in our spare time. Chances are none of us here will ever support ourselves from Go, and we will certainly not put our kids through college with Go. It will not help you buy a house or fix your car so you can get to work on time. It will not pay your medical bills whe you get sick. Stuff like that...

You know... come to think about it, I am not really sure why I am defending this particular point... if you really think that playing Go in your life should take precedence over taking care of your family, it is really not my problem. You're a big boy, do what you want. But you won't be able to change my opinion, so this conversation is moot.

Just cross out this particular sentence from my original post and we take it from there.
What else you got?

SpongeBob wrote:.. creative when programming...

daal wrote:

LokBuddha wrote:Which one is harder, Programming or Go, in term of learning progress and time to become competent say 1d amateur in Go as in Programming? from the perspective of programmer and non programmer.

Why do you want to know? You might get some better answers...

I just started to learn programming and just want to hear some perspectives particularly from Go players who are also programmer. Maybe the better question would be "Do dan Go player have easier time learn programming and progress faster than lower level Go player, or what?" or maybe I should stop asking these questions and go do my Hello world (When will I be able to make anything meaningful??)

I'm programming for more then 25 years
That doesn't help me that much to improve at go...

I started programming at 13yo (on my beloved commodore C64) and started to learn go at 41... That makes quite a difference....

Bantari wrote:
if you really think that playing Go in your life should take precedence over taking care of your family, it is really not my problem.

When did I say that? If you aren't going to discuss what I actually write, then I agree, this conversation is moot.

LokBuddha wrote:Which one is harder, Programming or Go, in term of learning progress and time to become competent say 1d amateur in Go as in Programming? from the perspective of programmer and non programmer.

I am about equally skilled at both, I think. I started learning both at about the same age, and am probably better at both than some 95% of my peers. You can become 1d at go within a year, if you start young, have some talent and spend a significant amount of time on it. To become equally competent at programming (1d is about top 10%, I think) takes far more time, because it is a much much wider field of knowledge (Perhaps if you focus on a very narrow field of programming, and spend all your time only on that field, you could be a top 10% programmer within that narrow field within a year).

Bantari wrote:

Kirby wrote:

Bantari wrote:And what's more, to those of us who think Go is their life, I say this: you are either very young, or very naive, or doing great injustice to yourself and your family. Unless you are a pro, of course.

Why? Doesn't this simply mean that such people have different priorities than you?

Yes, this is exactly what it means. And in my book, if you put higher priority on your hobby than on your own family and your own future, your priorities are wrong. And you will hear me say (or at least make me think) what I said above: you are either young, or naive, or whatever... selfish maybe?

But this is only my personal opinion, and you should feel free to live your life any way you please. Just be prepared for people judging you by the choices you make and actions you take.

This discussion seems to have twisted the OP, which explicitly allows for people that are not professional programmers. For me both programming and Go have both been hobbies. I started Go in the 70's when I picked up my first Go book and I started programming in the 80's when I bought my first PC. Both have provided a great deal of pleasure and soaked up a great deal of time at different points in my life. Neither was what put bread on the table. Which is more difficult to be competent in? Beats me. Ask me again if I ever reach that point in either.

ez4u wrote:Which is more difficult to be competent in? Beats me. Ask me again if I ever reach that point in either.

I don't know about your skill at programming, but to say that you are not competent at go is nonsense. Competence does not imply perfection. You're among the best 5% of players, how much more competent can you get?

In October of this year I will hit the tenth anniversary of joining my amateur groups in Tokyo. It means that I will have met and studied with a short list of typical Japanese pros four times a month for 120 months. I have had a lot of fun but have always done it as a hobbyist. None of my teachers have been title contenders in their careers. Nevertheless they all have a hard-edged competence that is completely different than whatever skills I possess. I have an outsider's understanding of the study and competitive process that went into making/selecting them pros. I have also been privileged (IMHO) to discuss many different games, problems, ideas, etc. with them. There simply IS a difference between us. I do not expect to ever cross that still vast chasm.

Similarly in programming. My background is accounting and my career was in banking and insurance. I have worked together with any number of professional programmers. That has included quite a few relative 'beginners'. It is the nature of the business world. However, they all had a background knowledge/competence that was different from anything that I had managed as a hobbyist. Although I might understand the business situation better and even such things as the data requirements, there was a line over which I could never really cross in any IT project. There was a point where someone 'competent' had to actually sit down and write code, professional code. The people who did that were simply different than wannabes like me.