Life In 19x19

Suji wrote:So, I ordered the first four books of the Elementary Go Series . I've been thoroughly impressed so far, but I do have a slight issue. I don't like doing problems. This carries over from my earlier chess playing days (which are intertwined at this stage with my Go playing days).

I realize that most everyone knows that this is how to improve, but I find doing problems extremely boring. This attitude about doing chess problems has made it's way, a long time ago, into my playing. Now, it's doing the same thing to my Go. It's part of the reason why I haven't improved much in Chess for a while. I rely on my intuition a lot to make a move in Chess. I was playing Go last night, and the intuition part of my brain was making almost instantaneous moves.

Part of the reason that I started playing Go was to learn to visualize properly, so that I could play both games with intuition and calculation.

How do I shed the notion that doing problems is boring, and how do I keep my intuition from taking over in games? Any ideas?

What do you guys do to make the problems fun?

I used to have the same problem as you, and to a certain extent I still do. I can't sit down and do a problem book, or even more than a couple of problems from one; it bores and irritates me. I have found, though, that having GoProblems.com open in a tab of my browser, with a set of problems (I usually have 50 problems it thinks range between 1k and 7k, from all types of problems, randomly sorted), which I visit to do a problem or two in "down time" or while I'm struggling for a word, or while something's compiling, etc., means I end up doing really quite a lot of problems. My Go has benefited from it a lot.

xed_over wrote:... I found that doing problems was a good way for me to pass the time on my bus ride to and from work each day[/b] -- and it helped me improve my game a little.

SpongeBob wrote:And yeah, like xed_over, I do the problems while I commute to and from work. If I would take the car, I am pretty sure I would not find or rather take the time to do problems. So you might think about using public transportation more often.

Unfortunately, I have to take my car to work. Public transportation isn't an option since I don't live within walking distance from any stops. I'm going to have to make time to do problems. Good idea, though.

SpongeBob wrote:I also do not like problems. But I force myself to do them because I know it is the most efficient way to improve reading. 'Tesuji' is a nice problem book. For Life & Death I would rather recommend '1001 Life and Death problems' as the book from the Elementary Go Series gets too difficult after a few chapters. Another problem book I can really recommend is 'Making Good Shape'.

What I do to motivate myself for doing problems is that I remind myself how important reading skill is in Go. It is a nice feeling to be able to read a variation easily in a game. The other thing is that reading ability only improves slowly and so you should try to constantly do something for it.

Nice to know that it's not just me who doesn't like problems. Those two books that you mention are definitely on my list to get. I'm not scared of difficulty right now, though I do reserve the right to change this view in the future .

CarlJung wrote:Tsumego surely is a good way to become stronger. But if you hate every second of it you are just punishing yourself. There are alternatives. Try replaying pro games. You'll get to see really good play and some sequences and shapes will pop up over and over again. That is good go. You will start to get a feel for what good go looks like. If you like it, go for it.

Also, pick up Tesuji. The problems are probably above your level (I found them hard even at 8k) but just looking at the answers opens up a whole new world. It's good go in a condensed form. But note that looking at the answers only applies to tesuji problems and not life and death. Expose yourself to better play and it will rub off.

I have Tesuji. I want to get better so problems above my level are okay for now (and the bonus that it's good Go doesn't hurt either). Replaying pro games is a good idea. Every once in a while, I'll go through some games pretty fast. I'm assuming I actually have to take the time to try and understand the moves.

...or you could just man up and work on your tsumego books

Might just have to do this.

Also, might have to read Kageyama's fundamentals as Loons suggests.

DuskEagle wrote:You may also want to study common corner shapes - some useful ones to study are the L group, the L+1 group, the L+2 group, and the J group. Studying these shapes can really help you develop your intuition in killing and living situations. Plus, if you can eventually remember the status of these shapes just by looking at them, it will help speed up your reading of a lot of corner situations dramatically. You'll also have a huge leg up on all the other 14 kyus, as few others will know anything about these shapes at all .

I think Life and Death covers these, and if not good idea. I know that Life and Death definitely covers the L-group.

On goproblems.com, that might be a possibility.

Now for the question concerning the Japanese books. I don't know any Japanese so how are the solutions presented in Arabic numbers or Japanese numbers? Basically, how easy are they to figure out?

kokomi wrote:Join tchan's tesuji time on kgs

What time is that?

Suji wrote: I'm not scared of difficulty right now, though I do reserve the right to change this view in the future .

not really a matter of being "scared of the difficulty". I believe its actually recommended to practice doing mostly problems that you might otherwise consider beneath your level.

Of course you'll want to stretch your muscles with the harder ones too. But be sure you can do the easy ones -- both the correct answer as well as understanding the wrong answers too -- as quickly as possible.

why don't you like problems ?

and more importand WHAT DO YOU LIKE ABOUT GO?

(only if i know this i can give advice)

Play fighting games until you get sick of getting beaten by stronger players? I don't know if forcing yourself to do problems is efficient (I don't think the mind learns things well that you don't want to learn).

CnP wrote:Play fighting games until you get sick of getting beaten by stronger players? I don't know if forcing yourself to do problems is efficient (I don't think the mind learns things well that you don't want to learn).

If you don't like tsumego, don't force yourself.

Playing fighting games may be a good idea, because it forces you to read in the game. If you do that (and play with time limits that allow you to read something) that should do for now. Also practice reading ladders, because there is never trouble about the right spot to start reading (and no tendency to memorize shapes, vital points etc.) but it is pushing yourself to visualize. (http://senseis.xmp.net/?path=LadderExercises)

Nah, you should force yourself.

Moving out of your comfort zone is a great learning experience.

Personal opinion only:
If its no fun, don't do it.

This is pretty much my approach. I tried Go problems now and then, found them boring every single time, and let them be every single time. And guess what, I still improved. I figured... I can sit and do problems for an hour... or I can play a game which will present me with better problems to solve on each move! So I pretty much always chose to play a game instead of doing problems... Same thing, only better.

Basically, if improving is for you more important than having fun, or improving by itself, as a general concept, gives enough satisfaction to outweight the boredom of solving problems, then solve problems. But from the very fact that you ask what you ask - I gather it is not the case. If it was worth it for you to work on boring problems, you would be doing it rather than asking if its worth it, no?

Also, I am not all that convinced that solving problems is the most efficient way to improve for everybody.

PS.
I can see some shadows of the other discussions we had, about rank obsession.
Lets not go there... or shall we?

My tsumego+ time is usually somewhere around GMT 4am-8am on weekdays in the godiscussions.com room on KGS. Unfortunately as it is purely for fun, it is just an occasional session without any set schedule. So you just have to be around the room when we study.

We usually look at tsumego and tesuji problems, but we also study other interesting items.

As most of you probably know, I have a large collection of Asian go books which are not easily found in most libraries. So I try to sample from these and prepare some interesting problems (some of which can be challenging even for dans).

The idea is a collaborative study where we are able to see the thinking process of different levels of understanding and hopefully to be able to improve our own. I try to pass the control to the lower ranked participants first and then if they are unable to solve it, I would pass the control to higher ranked people. I think this makes problems less boring as we learn from each other trying to figure out why certain problems work and what are the best responses for both sides.

Currently we have a few people in the SDK and shodan levels who regularly attend. If we get more people in the DDK level, I may include some easier problems to cater to their needs as well.