Life In 19x19

Note the 41-game winning streak was for domestic games only.

macelee wrote:Note the 41-game winning streak was for domestic games only.

I don't know the details of how they counted it, but I don't think you're correct.

For example, the wins on April 7th and April 9th were for the Fujitsu Cup (e.g. April 9th, he won against Takemiya Masao). The list also includes some wins from the Asian TV Cup, where he beat Qian Yuping 9p from China, along with Takemiya Masaki 9d and Kobayashi Satoru 9d from Japan.

So I don't think it's true to say that his winning streak was limited to domestic matches, even if it includes many domestic games.

Kirby wrote:

macelee wrote:Note the 41-game winning streak was for domestic games only.

I don't know the details of how they counted it, but I don't think you're correct.

For example, the wins on April 7th and April 9th were for the Fujitsu Cup (e.g. April 9th, he won against Takemiya Masao). The list also includes some wins from the Asian TV Cup, where he beat Qian Yuping 9p from China, along with Takemiya Masaki 9d and Kobayashi Satoru 9d from Japan.

So I don't think it's true to say that his winning streak was limited to domestic matches, even if it includes many domestic games.

macelee might be referring to this game:

[1990-06-02] 3rd Fujitsu Cup, round 3
Lee Changho 4p vs Kobayashi Koichi 9p W+0.5

(according to sensei's library, here is the list for the 41 wins: https://valeriosampieri.wordpress.com/2 ... nsecutive/)

but anyway Lee Changho is still a great player

gamesorry wrote:

Kirby wrote:

macelee wrote:Note the 41-game winning streak was for domestic games only.

I don't know the details of how they counted it, but I don't think you're correct.

For example, the wins on April 7th and April 9th were for the Fujitsu Cup (e.g. April 9th, he won against Takemiya Masao). The list also includes some wins from the Asian TV Cup, where he beat Qian Yuping 9p from China, along with Takemiya Masaki 9d and Kobayashi Satoru 9d from Japan.

So I don't think it's true to say that his winning streak was limited to domestic matches, even if it includes many domestic games.

macelee might be referring to this game:

[1990-06-02] 3rd Fujitsu Cup, round 3
Lee Changho 4p vs Kobayashi Koichi 9p W+0.5

but anyway Lee Changho is still a great player

Could be. I'm just saying that the "streak" includes non-domestic games, which is contrary to what he said.

I also agree that I don't know what criteria is being used to consider it a "streak", due to examples like the one you mention.

But whatever criteria they are using, it's not that it only includes domestic games, since there are international tournament games included in the "streak".

There are always nuances to records like these. Kind of like last year when they said "Ki Jie hasn't lost a game this year as white". There were technically some losses, but apparently they didn't count them for that stat.

Probably same kind of thing here.

Kirby wrote:

gamesorry wrote:

Kirby wrote:
I don't know the details of how they counted it, but I don't think you're correct.

For example, the wins on April 7th and April 9th were for the Fujitsu Cup (e.g. April 9th, he won against Takemiya Masao). The list also includes some wins from the Asian TV Cup, where he beat Qian Yuping 9p from China, along with Takemiya Masaki 9d and Kobayashi Satoru 9d from Japan.

So I don't think it's true to say that his winning streak was limited to domestic matches, even if it includes many domestic games.

macelee might be referring to this game:

[1990-06-02] 3rd Fujitsu Cup, round 3
Lee Changho 4p vs Kobayashi Koichi 9p W+0.5

but anyway Lee Changho is still a great player

Could be. I'm just saying that the "streak" includes non-domestic games, which is contrary to what he said.

I also agree that I don't know what criteria is being used to consider it a "streak", due to examples like the one you mention.

But whatever criteria they are using, it's not that it only includes domestic games, since there are international tournament games included in the "streak".

There are always nuances to records like these. Kind of like last year when they said "Ki Jie hasn't lost a game this year as white". There were technically some losses, but apparently they didn't count them for that stat.

Probably same kind of thing here.

Yeah I think at that time the international tournaments not held by Hanguk Kiwon were not counted (Therefore Fujitsu Cup is not included while Tongyang Cup is). There's a Chinese article talking about it: http://weiqi.sports.tom.com/news/21931.html (Note that Kobayashi Koichi was wrongly mentioned as Kobayashi Satoru).

gamesorry wrote: Yeah I think at that time the international tournaments not held by Hanguk Kiwon were not counted (Therefore Fujitsu Cup is not included while Tongyang Cup is). There's a Chinese article talking about it: http://weiqi.sports.tom.com/news/21931.html (Note that Kobayashi Koichi was wrongly mentioned as Kobayashi Satoru).

(At least some) Fujitsu Cup results are included, though. I'm not sure what you mean.

Kirby wrote: For example, the wins on April 7th and April 9th were for the Fujitsu Cup (e.g. April 9th, he won against Takemiya Masao).

Looks like the list you found, and the list I found are different. That's probably the discrepancy.

I found a couple of lists related to the 41-streak online, but they include games from Fujitsu Cup and TV Asia Cup.

The list you linked doesn't seem to have those games.

Okay, I understand the discrepancy. I found a Korean article explaining this: https://www.cyberoro.com/news/news_view.oro?num=517972

Incidentally, it has the same list of 41 games that I found.

Basically, you are correct in that - at one time - the Hanguk Kiwon did not recognize Fujitsu Cup and Asia TV Cup.

In the 1990s, when these games were played, the Hanguk Kiwon did not recognize TV Asia Cup or Fujitsu Cup. Lee Changho was winning a lot, and had 41 consecutive wins in the domestic Korean tournaments. People started talking about this "41 game streak".

But about 10 years later (around 2000), the Hanguk Kiwon, probably following Japan's example, decided to consider the popular international tournaments, Fujitsu Cup, TV Asia Cup, etc., as official. At this time, they updated records and you can find games from the 1990s marked as "official" records today.

This presents a problem when referring to Lee Changho's 41 game winning streak. Namely, Lee Changho had two losses in the middle of his streak: 1 during the Fujitsu Cup, and 1 during the TV Asia Cup.

The list that I found, and also the one you can find on the page I linked, list his winning "streak", including wins from Fujitsu and TV Asia Cup - as they are considered official games. However, you can see in the link I provided that, below the chart, it indicates the two losses - he went 2-1 in TV Asia, and he lost the one game in Fujitsu Cup.

---

So basically, as far as the Hanguk Kiwon is concerned, Lee Changho no longer has a 41 game winning "streak", because these other games are considered official, now.

He won several games that year, but did not have a 41 game winning streak. The dates I listed include all of his wins, including the international wins.

But there are 2 losses during that time period, which break the streak.


Too bad.

gamesorry wrote: (Note that Kobayashi Koichi was wrongly mentioned as Kobayashi Satoru).

Regarding this, Koichi is who he lost to to constitute his loss in Fujitsu Cup. Satoru, he played on August 13th, 1990 for the Fujitsu Cup, and won against him.

So the losses are from Kobayashi Koichi (1 game in Fujitsu Cup) and Takemiya Masao (1 game in TV Asia Cup).

In conclusion, considering that the Hanguk Kiwon now recognizes those international tournaments, Lee Changho's record is 20 (coming up to his loss against Kobayashi Koichi in Fujitsu Cup), followed by an 18 game winning streak before he lost one of the games in TV Asia Cup against Takemiya Masao.

macelee wrote:Note the 41-game winning streak was for domestic games only.

So I guess I should apologize, macelee. I thought that you were incorrect since the list I was looking at included international games (Fujitsu Cup & TV Asia Cup). But now I understand that the whole "41-game winning streak" phrase was coined before Hanguk Kiwon considered these games official. And the list I found for his "streak" included these official games, but mention as a side note that there are two losses during this period.

Anyway, I learned something, so that's good.

Kirby wrote:

gamesorry wrote: (Note that Kobayashi Koichi was wrongly mentioned as Kobayashi Satoru).

Regarding this, Koichi is who he lost to to constitute his loss in Fujitsu Cup. Satoru, he played on August 13th, 1990 for the Fujitsu Cup, and won against him.

So the losses are from Kobayashi Koichi (1 game in Fujitsu Cup) and Takemiya Masao (1 game in TV Asia Cup).

In conclusion, considering that the Hanguk Kiwon now recognizes those international tournaments, Lee Changho's record is 20 (coming up to his loss against Kobayashi Koichi in Fujitsu Cup), followed by an 18 game winning streak before he lost one of the games in TV Asia Cup against Takemiya Masao.

That's right Anyway, though Lee Changho lost this record, he's undoubtedly a genius and the best player in the 1990s.

gamesorry wrote:

Kirby wrote:

gamesorry wrote: (Note that Kobayashi Koichi was wrongly mentioned as Kobayashi Satoru).

Regarding this, Koichi is who he lost to to constitute his loss in Fujitsu Cup. Satoru, he played on August 13th, 1990 for the Fujitsu Cup, and won against him.

So the losses are from Kobayashi Koichi (1 game in Fujitsu Cup) and Takemiya Masao (1 game in TV Asia Cup).

In conclusion, considering that the Hanguk Kiwon now recognizes those international tournaments, Lee Changho's record is 20 (coming up to his loss against Kobayashi Koichi in Fujitsu Cup), followed by an 18 game winning streak before he lost one of the games in TV Asia Cup against Takemiya Masao.

That's right Anyway, though Lee Changho lost this record, he's undoubtedly a genius and the best player in the 1990s.

Yeah. Go level certainly is increasing these days!

Hi guys, this is where the confusion come from: the Tongyang Securities Cup was not an international tournament in 1990, it was a domestic one with a few guest players from overseas.

https://valeriosampieri.wordpress.com/2 ... nsecutive/

The URL above list all 41 games and all opponents are Korean.

macelee wrote:Hi guys, this is where the confusion come from: the Tongyang Securities Cup was not an international tournament in 1990, it was a domestic one with a few guest players from overseas.

https://valeriosampieri.wordpress.com/2 ... nsecutive/

The URL above list all 41 games and all opponents are Korean.

Thanks, macelee. I don't think that's what I was confused about - you can read my earlier comments about the sites I looked up to understand.

To be clear, if you query the "41 game streak" that Lee Changho had on some Korean sites, the set of 41 games are different than the list you linked. Namely, international games are now included, including games from TV Asia Cup and Fujitsu Cup.

You can see this, for example, on the link I provided. This site lists the 41 games, but also indicates that Lee Changho lost two of them.

From this perspective, Lee Changho did not really have a 41 game streak.

The list you are linking is the old version, not including the international games that are now recognized by the Hanguk Kiwon.

Incidentally, the page also explains that, while the Hanguk Kiwon "counts" these international games such that Lee Changho can no longer be considered to have a 41-game streak, the Hanguk Kiwon still does not acknowledge some of the games Lee Sedol won in China, which would have contributed to Lee Sedol having some record for winning 1000 games awhile back.

Some people commenting on the article indicated that they didn't think it was fair to "count" the losses against Lee Changho, while "not counting" the wins for Lee Sedol.

However you want to categorize it is up to you. The reality is, Lee Changho was short of winning 41 games in a row by 2 losses mixed in the set. These losses happened to be from two international tournaments.

Joe DiMaggio had a 56 game hitting streak in 1941, breaking the previous record of 41 games.