Pros inspired by AlphaGo

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Vesa
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Re: Pros inspired by AlphaGo

Post by Vesa »

ez4u wrote:@Uberdude
How about this 10? Black suffers from shortage of liberties on both sides.
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X O . . X O . O . O O . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X X O . . X O . X O X . O . . O . . |
$$ | . X O , . . X . . O X O . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . O X . . . . O X . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X X . . . . O X O . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . X . |
$$ | . . . O O . . . . . . . X . . X X O . |
$$ | . . O X X . . . . . . O . . . . O . O |
$$ | . . O O X O . . O . . O X X 0 X X O O |
$$ | . O O X X O . O . O O X O 7 2 6 . 9 . |
$$ | . X O X O O X O O X X X O 8 1 O O O 3 |
$$ | X . X O . O . X O X O O O . 5 O X 4 O |
$$ | . . X O O X X X X X X X O O O X X X O |
$$ | . . X X O X . X . X X . O X X X X . X |
$$ | . . . . O . . . X X . . . O . . . X . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
After black 1, how would you continue? Profit for black?
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X O . . X O . O . O O . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X X O . . X O . X O X . O . . O . . |
$$ | . X O , . . X . . O X O . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . O X . . . . O X . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X X . . . . O X O . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . X . |
$$ | . . . O O . . . . . . . X . . X X O . |
$$ | . . O X X . . . . . . O 4 . 2 1 O . O |
$$ | . . O O X O . . O . . O X X O X X O O |
$$ | . O O X X O . O . O O X O X O O 3 X 5 |
$$ | . X O X O O X O O X X X O O X O O O X |
$$ | X . X O . O . X O X O O O . X O X O O |
$$ | . . X O O X X X X X X X O O O X X X O |
$$ | . . X X O X . X . X X . O X X X X . X |
$$ | . . . . O . . . X X . . . O . . . X . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
Or perhaps the earlier 7-8 exchange can be omitted?
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X O . . X O . O . O O . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X X O . . X O . X O X . O . . O . . |
$$ | . X O , . . X . . O X O . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . O X . . . . O X . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X X . . . . O X O . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . X . |
$$ | . . . O O . . . . . . . X . . X X O . |
$$ | . . O X X . . . . . . O . . . 9 O . O |
$$ | . . O O X O . . O . . O X X 8 X X O O |
$$ | . O O X X O . O . O O X O . 2 6 . 7 . |
$$ | . X O X O O X O O X X X O . 1 O O O 3 |
$$ | X . X O . O . X O X O O O . 5 O X 4 O |
$$ | . . X O O X X X X X X X O O O X X X O |
$$ | . . X X O X . X . X X . O X X X X . X |
$$ | . . . . O . . . X X . . . O . . . X . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
Cheers,
Vesa
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Re: Pros inspired by AlphaGo

Post by Uberdude »

Lucian wrote:If you took the trouble to put it in nice diagrams, don't forget the one when White sacrifices the tail in order to live: after Black P4, White plays directly R6. Just for reference :)
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wm8 variation 3, sacrifice the tail
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X O . 7 X O . O . O O . . . b f d . |
$$ | . X X O . . X O . X O X . O . a O e . |
$$ | . X O , 5 . X . . O X O . . . X c . . |
$$ | . . . O X 6 . . . O X . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X X . . . . O X O . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . X . |
$$ | . . . O O . . . . . . . X . . X X O . |
$$ | . . O X X . . . . . . O . . . . O . O |
$$ | . . O O X O . . O . . O X X . X X O O |
$$ | . O O X X O . O . O O X O 4 O 2 1 . 3 |
$$ | . X O X O O X O O X X X O . X O O O . |
$$ | X . X O . O . X O X O O O . X O X O O |
$$ | . . X O O X X X X X X X O O O X X X O |
$$ | . . X X O X . X . X X . O X X X X . X |
$$ | . . . . O . . . X X . . . O . . . X . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]
So if the defence was slow (was that the judgement of some Chinese pro analysis macelee read that correctly saw p4 and the possibility of this trade?) that's saying this trade is better for white, give the tail and take the top left instead (I think top right is biggest (I think we can assume a-f), then top left (which isn't sente but if black omits c11 then white can hassle the eyeshape a bit following c12) and then centre). It's quite hard to count the difference as in the game soon after the top left sequence white came back to answer the top right corner attach, which meant Weon got that in sente which is pretty nice (though of course bad aji from that p18 hane connect remains as the game winning sequence shows).

And regarding ez4u / Vesa, it does look better to not push with 7-8 doesn't it, as then black can keep the white chain to 3 liberties (if white pushes out above 8 in Vesa's last diagram black can now just block and doesn't lose the 3 stones) and the killing/trade sequence remains. Another important move order technique!
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Re: Pros inspired by AlphaGo

Post by Granlund »

Uberdude wrote:And regarding ez4u / Vesa, it does look better to not push with 7-8 doesn't it, as then black can keep the white chain to 3 liberties (if white pushes out above 8 in Vesa's last diagram black can now just block and doesn't lose the 3 stones) and the killing/trade sequence remains. Another important move order technique!
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X O . . X O . O . O O . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X X O . . X O . X O X . O . . O . . |
$$ | . X O , . . X . . O X O . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . O X . . . . O X . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X X . . . . O X O . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . X . |
$$ | . . . O O . . . . . . . X . . X X O . |
$$ | . . O X X . . . . . . O . . 2 1 O . O |
$$ | . . O O X O . . O . . O X X O X X O O |
$$ | . O O X X O . O . O O X O . O O . X . |
$$ | . X O X O O X O O X X X O . X O O O X |
$$ | X . X O . O . X O X O O O . X O X O O |
$$ | . . X O O X X X X X X X O O O X X X O |
$$ | . . X X O X . X . X X . O X X X X . X |
$$ | . . . . O . . . X X . . . O . . . X . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
How does black block?
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Re: Pros inspired by AlphaGo

Post by Uberdude »

My mistake, I was thinking p9 block and then white can't capture the o7 stones like he could before, but he can still get o6 in sente which is enough to live. So if all black can capture is the 5 white stones on the right edge then it does seem the kosumi was slow. But maybe there is a better move order for black?
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Re: Pros inspired by AlphaGo

Post by Uberdude »

And today Lee Sedol just beat Won Sungjin again to extend his winning streak to 7 games and win the Maxim cup, his first title since the AlphaGo match.
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Re: Pros inspired by AlphaGo

Post by jeromie »

It's fun to see Lee Sedol reinvigorated in his pursuit of the game. These results are a great example of why we always clamor for successful players to play other top competition; sometimes a rival or other obstacle inspires a person to new heights in their own game.
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Re: Pros inspired by AlphaGo

Post by Kirby »

jeromie wrote:It's fun to see Lee Sedol reinvigorated in his pursuit of the game. These results are a great example of why we always clamor for successful players to play other top competition; sometimes a rival or other obstacle inspires a person to new heights in their own game.
From an earlier, related article (http://www.tygem.com/news/news/viewpage ... &findword=)
Hong Minpyo 9d wrote: 이세돌 9단이 각성을 한 것처럼 새로운 수법을 구사하고 있다. 아마도 미리 연구된 수가 아니라 즉흥적으로 구사한 수 같다.
알파고와의 대국 이후 이세돌 9단의 사고가 한층 유연해졌다
It's as if Lee Sedol 9d has become awakened - he's taking command of a new way of playing.
Perhaps it's not moves that he's researched in advance, but rather, it seems that he's taken a command of his moves in an impromptu fashion.
After the match with AlphaGo, Lee Sedol 9d's thinking has become more and more flexible.
I suppose the time has come for me to get over my grumpiness from the whole AlphaGo thing. :grumpy:

Might as well accept the new world - it's the only way to learn from it. :-)
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Re: Pros inspired by AlphaGo

Post by daal »

Here is an article in English about lessons Lee Sedol has learned from his match against AlphaGo: http://english.khan.co.kr/khan_art_view ... ode=710100

Also, Hajin Lee gave a talk about AlphaGo and professional players: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0rDSnAb ... e=youtu.be
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Re: Pros inspired by AlphaGo

Post by Kirby »

daal wrote: Also, Hajin Lee gave a talk about AlphaGo and professional players
Interesting that you mention it - I watched it, too. I found two parts of her talk to be particularly interesting:

(1) It appears she might have had some experience in playing AlphaGo, based on the way she answered one of the questions. Maybe she helped the AlphaGo team in testing out AlphaGo's strength. Fan Hui also played such a role, if I recall. I'm not really sure, but the way she answered the question was somewhat cryptic, and made me curious.

(2) Her discussion on the ecosystem of Go:

Image

She described the ecosystem as shown above: fans buy Go books, Go lessons, and watch pro tournaments. The interest from fans provides incentive for Go tournaments, teaching by professionals, etc., and these in turn provide support to professional players.

I agree with her that, with AlphaGo in the picture, there is potential for this ecosystem to be destroyed. For example, if Go fans have access to AlphaGo-like software at home, which provides better insight into the game than professionals or tournaments, maybe professional players and tournaments have less of a place in the world.

Her proposed solution was to maintain "balance" in the Go ecosystem by providing tools to each party:

Image

The general idea was, if pros, tournament organizers, and Go organizations have tools to supplement what they do now, they can remain a part of the ecosystem - people can still retain interest in professional players, for example, because a pro+computer combination might provide more than either computer alone or human alone can offer.

My personal feeling is that a balanced ecosystem may be desirable, but it will take effort by the interested parties to achieve. With something as disruptive as AlphaGo, it's not unfeasible for an "unbalanced" ecosystem (this diagram is not from her presentation):

Image

It'd be a pity, but it's not an impossible outcome, in my opinion.

But I suppose that there is at least one comforting aspect of the uncertain future which awaits us: all of these potential ecosystems are fueled by Go - the game we are interested in.
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Re: Pros inspired by AlphaGo

Post by Uberdude »

Kirby, why do you think AlphaGo would destroy professional Go players, when DeepBlue/Rybka/Fritz etc haven't destroyed professional chess players?
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Re: Pros inspired by AlphaGo

Post by pookpooi »

As a go fan and a part of kibitzer culture I'd love to see AlphaGo vs. pro more than I play with it myself, so Elite players are still in needed
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Re: Pros inspired by AlphaGo

Post by Kirby »

Uberdude wrote:Kirby, why do you think AlphaGo would destroy professional Go players, when DeepBlue/Rybka/Fritz etc haven't destroyed professional chess players?
Well, I don't really think that. It's just a possibility - Hajin's idea of a "balanced ecosystem" is an optimistic view. This is a pessimistic alternative. Even being pessimistic, I don't think that professional players will likely be "destroyed" - perhaps just less relevant.

It's kind of like the advent of Internet Go. It increased people's playing ability, spread interest in Go, and made people stronger. But some of the magic of the face-to-face Go clubs was lost.

I don't know what the future will be for Go, but I hope that it can retain its "magic".
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Re: Pros inspired by AlphaGo

Post by Uberdude »

Another game from Park Junghwan feature an AlphaGo game 5 based opening, but he played black (Lee, with the big lower right corner) against Shi Yue, whereas before it was Mi Yuting as black in the lower right corner. I was interested to see Park play the 2 rather than one space extension at the bottom right, as I had wondered if this would be more efficient (but with more aji) once the trade happens. Park didn't play Mi's s10 attachment though, and then the top right had a resistance to the crosscut like the Shin Jinseo vs Heo Yongho game.

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Re: Pros inspired by AlphaGo

Post by by78 »

jeromie wrote:It's fun to see Lee Sedol reinvigorated in his pursuit of the game. These results are a great example of why we always clamor for successful players to play other top competition; sometimes a rival or other obstacle inspires a person to new heights in their own game.

This is why it's so sad that Japanese players relatively isolated. How can they improve and catch up with Korea and China when they play so little internationally?
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Re: Pros inspired by AlphaGo

Post by Uberdude »

4 of the 8 games in the LG cup round of 16 featured the AlphaGo game 5 opening or variations on it:









Also Lee Sedol's 8 game win streak came to an end with a loss to his old rival Gu Li in the previous round with a similar opening (note the 2 rather than one space extension in the lower right which tries to make a more efficient territory if white goes for the trade like in AlphaGo game 5, but white can resist with the o4 peep):
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