Life In 19x19

gowan wrote:My point would be that we can't say exactly who sees more in the game.

Then I would agree with your point.

I haven't been following this discussion closely, but I wanted to point out that in today's NHK match between Shida Tatsuya and Cho Chikun, Shida made a huge error and lost the game. He didn't respond to an atari placed by Cho. According the analysts after the game, it was close, maybe Shida was ahead. Cho, thought he was slightly ahead. In either case, it was probably too close to call. The mistake, which was a blatant error cost him the game. The kifu is not yet available on NHK website. I am not sure how long after the match they wait before putting it online. Be sure to have a look, though, if you can find it.

Go_Japan wrote:I haven't been following this discussion closely, but I wanted to point out that in today's NHK match between Shida Tatsuya and Cho Chikun, Shida made a huge error and lost the game. He didn't respond to an atari placed by Cho. According the analysts after the game, it was close, maybe Shida was ahead. Cho, thought he was slightly ahead. In either case, it was probably too close to call. The mistake, which was a blatant error cost him the game. The kifu is not yet available on NHK website. I am not sure how long after the match they wait before putting it online. Be sure to have a look, though, if you can find it.

Here is a Youtube video of the NHK broadcast of the game. Yes, that was a huge mistake.

by78 wrote:[..]

Here is a Youtube video of the NHK broadcast of the game. Yes, that was a huge mistake.

Uhm, where? First I thought I was missing something

Bonobo wrote:

by78 wrote:[..]

Here is a Youtube video of the NHK broadcast of the game. Yes, that was a huge mistake.

Uhm, where? First I thought I was missing something

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=igOBjQQgjFc

Watch from the 1 hour mark to see the big error.

Go_Japan wrote:

Bonobo wrote:

by78 wrote:[..]

Here is a Youtube video of the NHK broadcast of the game. Yes, that was a huge mistake.

Uhm, where? First I thought I was missing something

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=igOBjQQgjFc

Watch from the 1 hour mark to see the big error.

Not quite Nakano Yasuhiro's 'hand-of-god' move against Ishida Yoshio, but it's very bad nonetheless.

It seems these kinds of beginner's blunders happen only when Kobayashi Koichi is the on-air commentator.

@By78's rant: I agree with you that the nationality of a player shouldn't matter and I also agree that 'beauty' and 'deep' and those descriptions are drivel.

However I disagree when you say that Ke Jie would win against Iyama if both were given 8hours. Many pro's have commented that 2-day matches are incredibly gruelling and a very different experience than shorter matches. Another example is that Gu Li prior to the jubango was worried about never having played under such long time controls.(4 hours each)

Many have argued in the 90's that a big part of the reason Cho Chikun was so dominant was because out of all players he was the one that was the most experienced with them (excluding players that were losing too much of their edge due to age).
Also it is quite likely that some players are more adept than others at using long time controls, in the same way that others are more better at lightning go than others.

I would argue that should, say, the top 5 chinese players be entered into the Kisei league, their results wouldn't be as impressive as you might think. However after having some experience with longer time controls, I would agree that (apart from Iyama) they would embarrass the Japanese players.

End of counterrant

I think that's a bit bold, EdIV. First, aren't the Kisei league games still 1 day events? Second supposing the effect of time limits would be real, you're talking about overcoming a 2-1 or 3-1 edge. That's a big difference.

A related question: was there any player who won his first challenge for a title featuring two day games? Rin Kaiho against Sakata maybe?

hyperpape wrote:A related question: was there any player who won his first challenge for a title featuring two day games? Rin Kaiho against Sakata maybe?

There is a number of those, for example Hane Naoki, Yamashita, Cho Sonjin, Kobayashi Satoru, etc. And maybe Cho Chikun as well. It's a little bit hard to check outside Kisei, Meijin and Honinbo.

Cheers,
Vesa

Maybe also Ishida, with the Honinbo. This conversation made me realize that I don't know which tournaments were two days prior to the seven big titles set up we have today.

Pretty much everything in those days was 2 days. When Rin and Ishida challenged for the Honinbo the league matches also lasted 2 days.
League matches were 9 hours each and the title match 10 hours each.

And I don't see what's so bold about my earlier statement. Currently league matches are 5 hours each and the title matches 8hours each. I admit my knowledge of time controls in China and Korea is much less extensive than the ones in Japan. I could be mistaken, but isn't 3hours the longest main time they have in China? That would mean that instead of 6 hours they would be spending 10 and 16 hours on a game. Not to mention that the top 3 Japanese tournaments are best of 7, compared to the usual best of 3(4 for the migren) in China.

But I agree it's all just speculation. How about opening up the Kisei league to foreigners? That would be fun.

EdIV wrote:
But I agree it's all just speculation. How about opening up the Kisei league to foreigners? That would be fun.

You mean open to non affiliated players of the Nihon Kiin or Kansas Kiin. Foreigners have done well in Japanese titles already.

oren wrote:...Kansas Kiin...

I find this amusing yet intriguing.

skydyr wrote:

oren wrote:...Kansas Kiin...

I find this amusing yet intriguing.

An autocorrect I missed. I need to just turn that thing off.

Vesa wrote: And maybe Cho Chikun as well. It's a little bit hard to check outside Kisei, Meijin and Honinbo.

Cho Chihun lost his first title final 3-2 against Sakata Eio in the 22nd Nihon Ki-in Championship, the last edition before it became the Tengen. I can't find the time limits, unfortunately.