Comparison of Interest in Pro Go by Country

[Magicwand]

@magicwand

I would love to see how the Koreans and/or the Chinese top players would squirm and squeel and then lose if they were to play the Japanese in a serious two-day Go rather than in the Micky Mouse games they like to amuse themselves in.

And yes - THAT is trolling.

But seriously, dude.
Even if the Japanese can be considered weaker in international competitions, I would assume that their slow-timed games are AT LEAST of the same quality as the fast-paced Korean/Chinese games, if not better. Its just a simple function of time controls and it can certainly overcome the small playing-strength disadvantage, if any. With the narrow-minded attitude like yours, the Korean and/or the Chinese would never have become as good as they are right now... since they would have never supported/advertised/broadcast/etc their own games as being vastly inferior... at the time they still were inferior. Think about that.

i have seen this crazy idea that 2 day game will give japanese player advantage.
it is simply crazy and rediculous to thing that.
didnt you see that people who are strong in 2day game also win in blitz game?

[hyperpape]

While I'm being semi-constructive, there's also a disparity of information on the subject. John Fairbairn keeps up with go in all three countries, but has more to say about Japanese go, and seems well-nigh unmatched in his level of knowledge and willingness to share it. For game results, when it comes to ease of use and (relative) lack of eye pain, I think Mr. Kin's go news wins, but also slants towards Japanese go (it's at http://igo-kisen.hp.infoseek.co.jp/news.html). Then there's John Power's digest of go news (http://www.nihonkiin.or.jp/index-e.htm).

For an English speaker, what's the best source of news that covers China and Korea in depth?

[gowan]

Let us not forget that the Chinese and Koreans were taught by the Japanese. How many Japanese teaching trips to China from 40 years ago on? Cho Hunhyeon went to Japan to learn. Cho Chikun went to Japan because it was the best place for him to learn. It might be true that if Wu Ching yuan (Go Seigen) had stayed in China he never would have developed his full genius powers. It is well known and understandable that there are still hard feelings about how the Japanese behaved in Korea and China before WWII but let's not vent them in this forum.

[palapiku]

Magicwand, don't you think the opportunity to have two pros play a really long game - something which just doesn't happen that often apparently - is in itself a good enough reason to be interested in the match, even if the pros aren't the best in the world?

[Magicwand]

Magicwand, don't you think the opportunity to have two pros play a really long game - something which just doesn't happen that often apparently - is in itself a good enough reason to be interested in the match, even if the pros aren't the best in the world?

i will say again. i like both yuta and shinji. they are both strong players. i do enjoy watching their game.

my point is that they get more rating than other pros in korea or china just because they play meijin.
i just reviewed game between mokjinsuk and choi chulhan. very very exciting game.
in my opinion that game is more exciting and worth my time.
but many people miss such exciting game because it is not meijin.

[Kirby]

...

i will say again. i like both yuta and shinji. they are both strong players. i do enjoy watching their game.

my point is that they get more rating than other pros in korea or china just because they play meijin.
i just reviewed game between mokjinsuk and choi chulhan. very very exciting game.
in my opinion that game is more exciting and worth my time.
but many people miss such exciting game because it is not meijin.

I think that you have a point, Magicwand, but it may simply be an effect of globalization. It's a lot easier for people to know about Japan.

Hikaru no Go, for example, is a piece of work that brought many westerners into the go scene. Results from international matches can be one evidence of strength, but to increase global popularity for Korean or Chinese go, I'd say that more advertising focused on an international audience needs to be done.

[Bantari]

i have seen this crazy idea that 2 day game will give japanese player advantage.
it is simply crazy and rediculous to thing that.
didnt you see that people who are strong in 2day game also win in blitz game?

No.
But I have seen plenty of strong blitz players who are weak in slow games and vice-versa.

Besides, from where I stand (and from where you stand even more) - all pros and their games are worth watching.
Dismissing a lifetime of achievement like you do just because there are stronger players is not just highly disrespectful to ALL pros (even the Korean and Chinese ones) but also just plain crazy! Chew on THAT, buster.

It also shows disrespect to all non-pro Go players whose games are worth watching and learning from.

I really don't get this kind of elitist and narrow attitude.
Sorry.

[Bantari]

my point is that they get more rating than other pros in korea or china just because they play meijin.

This is a good point.
But the solution is not to diss the Japanese, and not to lower the awareness of the Japanese scene, but to try to raise the awareness of the Korean/Chinese scene.
It is a sad approach to try to elevate your hero by putting others down. If that's the only way, then its a sad hero...

i just reviewed game between mokjinsuk and choi chulhan. very very exciting game.
in my opinion that game is more exciting and worth my time.

How do you know that?
The mejin games we are talking about haven't been played yet!!
There might turn out to be every bit as exciting, or more so!

Or are you saying Japanese games are NEVER as exciting as Korean games?
Good thing not all Koreans think like that, or there would be no Korean pros...

but many people miss such exciting game because it is not meijin.

Again - raise awareness of Korean games and Go scene rather than try to dismiss everything else.
Post the game, invite to analysis, this way you will do us all a service.
You're a big boy, you know what to do, yes?

[hyperpape]

my point is that they get more rating than other pros in korea or china just because they play meijin....but many people miss such exciting game because it is not meijin.

A good sentiment. Not what you originally said, and no one would have fussed over this.

[tapir]

Magicwand, don't you think the opportunity to have two pros play a really long game - something which just doesn't happen that often apparently - is in itself a good enough reason to be interested in the match, even if the pros aren't the best in the world?

i will say again. i like both yuta and shinji. they are both strong players. i do enjoy watching their game.

my point is that they get more rating than other pros in korea or china just because they play meijin.
i just reviewed game between mokjinsuk and choi chulhan. very very exciting game.
in my opinion that game is more exciting and worth my time.
but many people miss such exciting game because it is not meijin.

Tell us, how many ressources in english language are available about the chinese and korean scene, as opposed to the japanese. It is just easier to follow for an outsider. Add an historical factor, for most people were exposed to Go as a japanese game (maybe together with some other japanese cultural flavour). We read books about how japanese players resign, how they sit during play, know who had the flu during a title match, watched hikaru no go, ... Add the age-long dominance of japanese go. (It is for a reason that chinese books point out who was the first chinese player to beat japanese 9 dan.) Consider, that most players - myself included - are too weak to enjoy a top players game in its depth (by reading the kifu only) but enjoy more the journalistic approach which tells me when ears are reddening, players coughing and how long white thought about move 212. I.e. we enjoy the story more than the game. Of course there is more interest in reports of a Meijin game then.

+ But don't be too sure western amateurs study more japanese games than chinese or korean ones.

Regards Tapir

[Horibe]

Magicwand - I am pretty sure that all pros, Japanese, Chinese and Korean - follow and study these two game matches. You are correct, playing two game matches does not make the Japanese better than their strong Chinese and Korean rivals, but it does produce some very good, deep and less blunder prone go.

You are right, the quicker games of the stronger players in Korea and China are more exciting - but is this better go, or more exciting go because, under quick time limits, players forge into new frontiers without a map?

It seems to me that two very good players, given 9 hours a piece, might produce a game as worthy of study as two great players given three hours a piece.

Can we at least agree that it would be really nice to see what the top Korean and Chinese players would produce in a two day match?

[Kirby]

This topic was created by request to split apart conversation that was not directly related to the 35th Meijin Match in this thread:
viewtopic.php?f=13&t=1296&p=25668

[Magicwand]

Magicwand - I am pretty sure that all pros, Japanese, Chinese and Korean - follow and study these two game matches. You are correct, playing two game matches does not make the Japanese better than their strong Chinese and Korean rivals, but it does produce some very good, deep and less blunder prone go.

You are right, the quicker games of the stronger players in Korea and China are more exciting - but is this better go, or more exciting go because, under quick time limits, players forge into new frontiers without a map?

It seems to me that two very good players, given 9 hours a piece, might produce a game as worthy of study as two great players given three hours a piece.

Can we at least agree that it would be really nice to see what the top Korean and Chinese players would produce in a two day match?

i am sure if japanese player getting 12 hours to think and korean and chinese top players only getting 3 hours to think i will bet my money on korean and chinese players.

[Ember]

i am sure if japanese player getting 12 hours to think and korean and chinese top players only getting 3 hours to think i will bet my money on korean and chinese players.

Wow. To accuse the japanese of their "arrogance" in the past and then writing this today. Interesting. Do you see some parallels, too?

Anyway, set up such a match and I accept that bet, betting on the japanese. But I doubt any Chinese or Korean Go pro would be willing to accept these or similar conditions (giving the oponent much more time or any other clear advantage).

[Magicwand]

i am sure if japanese player getting 12 hours to think and korean and chinese top players only getting 3 hours to think i will bet my money on korean and chinese players.

Wow. To accuse the japanese of their "arrogance" in the past and then writing this today. Interesting. Do you see some parallels, too?

Anyway, set up such a match and I accept that bet, betting on the japanese. But I doubt any Chinese or Korean Go pro would be willing to accept these or similar conditions (giving the oponent much more time or any other clear advantage).

if japanese people still hold on to the belief that they are the strongest in 2 day game..i am sorry for your stupidity.
i have said it and say them again. if you are good at 2 day game then you are also good at 2 hour game.
reason why japanese players can not place well in world championship is because they are weaker than chinese and korean players.
result speaks for itself!!

does 2 day game have less mistakes than 3 hour game?
yes and no!!!
i am sure more time will give them some chance of correct move.
but 3 hours is plenty of time for anybody to play reasonablely good game.
but if you are second class player ...does it really matter how much time you get??

my final point...stop holding on to the belief that 2 day game will give japanese advantage.

Ember: i can give you 1 year to think but you will not be able to beat me. because rank matters. it is not the time but it is strength.