Life In 19x19

dhu163 wrote:I'm not sure what is wrong with SL, I think I found it very useful at kyu level, and have used it now and again since (e.g. to see how they present go theory, some go problems, proverbs, endgame theory).

SL is good for what it is: as I said, a go site by and for amateurs. And I have contributed a good bit of content there. But it is not authoritative. Unfortunately, the proverbs page is one that I cannot bear to look at.

More seriously, peep does seem quite strange terminology for this sort of move

Really? You're walking beside a wall or a fence and see a hole - a gap in an ikken tobi, say. You move your eye to the hole and look through. You peep, surely? This is not a difference between British and American English, because it was precisely the Peeping Tom nature of the move Bob Terry objected to.

It would be rather painful to poke your eye into the hole. In fact the intent of the peep is rarely to poke through anyway (but if you did, that would be de, or warikomi if you don't precede it with a peep). It's usually expected to be a forcing move and so stops there. Surreptitiously looking at someone tends to make them react (who you looking at, mate?) so conveys the forcing element quite nicely, in fact.

But whatever you or I think of the word, that's what the Japanese decided on long before us.

dhu163 wrote:http://senseis.xmp.net/?GoProverbs

is my source,

in particular http://senseis.xmp.net/?DontTryToCutTheOnePointJump

Sigh, SL... I propose to not use SL as "ground information", since we'll end up with a lot of cyclic arguments.

dhu163 wrote:I don't think finding counterexamples to proverbs is much help to getting stronger, but perhaps it is a interesting exercise.

Well, simply finding counterexamples is not in general worth all that much. We all know that go proverbs have many exceptions. But they are useful, nonetheless, as guides or default rules. Human beings are actually quite good at thinking in terms of default rules that have exceptions. It is thus good to get an idea of what the exceptions are and where they lie. Under what conditions are the default rules applicable or not?

For instance, one default rule is to make the largest play. What are the exceptions? One obvious exception is to take a sente while you still can. Another exception, less well understood, is to take the last gote before a drop in global temperature. This idea probably lies behind that of getting the last big play of the opening and that of getting the last big yose, and, in some cases, the last play of the game.

Another example is the proverb to extend from a crosscut. As the discussion page on SL notes: “Eh?" says Tsutsumi, "Shouldn't one extend from a cross-cut?". "No, no, no", cries Ishikura. "That's only when there are no other stones nearby." (From Richard Hunter’s Cross-cut Workshop, quoted on SL at http://senseis.xmp.net/?CrosscutThenExt ... Discussion ). In this case, the extension may be the exception, but the point is that there are identifiable situations where the proverb applies, and other identifiable situations where it does not.

Another example is the proverb to play at the “centre” of three stones. Consider the exception that you show.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$B
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . O . O O X X . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . O X X X O . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . 1 . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . O . O X . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . X X X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O , . . . . . , O . . . . O O X . |
$$ | . . . . O . . . . . . . . O . O X X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]

When I had just learned that proverb, as a kyu player, I never dreamed that it would apply to this kind of situation. For one thing, I thought that it was about attacking the three stones, not defending them. For another, I thought that it did not apply to open situations, but to situations where the three stones were enclosed. I also thought that it was (usually) an example of the more general proverb about playing on the point of symmetry, not just in relation to the three stones, but in relation to the surrounding stones. Anyway, as I learned that proverb, I also learned something about when it applies and when it does not.

Lastly, there is the saying about attachment for defense. That’s one I had never heard of, but I have heard of the one about attachment for sabaki. That is more specific. The more general saying surely admits of more exceptions.

So, yes. Just cataloguing exceptions may not help too much. But understanding the scope and limits of the proverbs is valuable.

I found it amusing that, looking at the new Go World today, there is an advert for a new book of proverbs by Ogaki Yusaku.

He says he thinks the most important proverb is "Play hane in response to an attachment," yet this may be one of the proverbs with the most counter-examples!

He includes a new proverb coined by himself: "Don't play kosumitsuke." His reasoning is that it is difficult to use it and so is best avoided.

Overall he gives 61 proverbs and the framework is to develop good suji, or a good tactical style. The list is fairly humdrum but does include the "(avoid) double peep at a bamboo joint" discussed here.

Like Bill, I think the "attach for defence" proverb is a (mild) corruption of a sabaki proverb, and to be pedantic the proper form is "sabaki starts with attachment." Sabaki doesn't mean playing lightly - it means "coping", so is a form of defence.

John Fairbairn wrote:I found it amusing that, looking at the new Go World today, there is an advert for a new book of proverbs by Ogaki Yusaku.

He says he thinks the most important proverb is "Play hane in response to an attachment," yet this may be one of the proverbs with the most counter-examples!

I will write a very short proverbs book:
1. Always choose the move with the best winrate.