I agree that the other 3-4 is more questionable (that's the one Kajiwara specifically mentioned), but when I went to look for fuseki that used this I found a sensei's library page that claimed black had a 65% winning percentage in pro games after this move and playing the other 4-4 point in the lower left. It's still played, though, so I don't think it's too bad. And I don't think it will make a big difference at this level, especially since I want to avoid allowing a 3-3 invasion for the same reasons I mentioned above.
@jeromie
Interesting.
According to Waltheri's pattern matching, it does increase black's ratio to 55-58%, however that's for all games. If you only search modern games, then it maintains a 50% ratio. That's for pros. At our level, yeah, I don't think it's a big deal either. Next time, black hole fuseki!
There are two basic choices here: settle a group quickly so I can add king stones or leave things unsettled so no one can add king stones.
My initial instinct was to play a pincer and leave things unsettled, but I don't think that works as well with the 3-4 point up top as I would like. It's certainly playable (all three pincers appear with approximately equal frequency on ps.waltheri.net), but the move I chose could lead to some solid territory and the chance to settle quickly. That also seems to be the most common choice on ps.waltheri.net. This is also consistent with my decision to play a territorial / thick game.
I can't quite play a king yet, but if I get to play the standard draw back joseki after a hane on the outside, I think I could add one to this group.
Posted: Sat Sep 23, 2017 3:15 am
by EdLee
Hidden tags not for players, unless otherwise noted.
I assume both of them have already figured out some basics about the kings. (a) a king: no throw-in ; (b) a king: not in a ko shape ( unless you're 100% sure you win the ko right now ) ; (c) the final move to make your own group 100% alive should be a king ; ( Barring (a) and (b). Any other exceptions to this ? ) Example:
$$ $$ --------------- $$ | . B . X O . . $$ | X X X X O . . $$ | O O O O O . . $$ | . . . , . . . $$ | . . . . . . . $$
[go]$$ $$ --------------- $$ | . B . X O . . $$ | X X X X O . . $$ | O O O O O . . $$ | . . . , . . . $$ | . . . . . . . $$[/go]
(d) kings in nakade: case by case ; some nakades can lead to seki, others don't ; (e) kings in big dragon: case by case ; if you have a non-alive dragon that's absolutely too big to give up, you're all-in anyway, so might as well add kings ( except (a),(b), etc. ) ;
interesting to see new strategies and tactics...
Even for a seki shape, you want to play kings if you're 100% sure your opponent can never, for the rest of the game, use their seki stones as ko threats to kill your seki kings... Hmm.
Re:
Posted: Sat Sep 23, 2017 6:34 am
by luigi
EdLee's comment has made me realize that the following rules clarification is needed:
When comparing positions as per the ko and superko rules, pawns and kings of the same color are considered the same.
This means you can take a ko with a king if you're sure to win it right away, as EdLee said. (This is probably what the players had assumed already, but the rules were a bit ambiguous on this point.)
I've added this to my original post in the other thread.
I've been playing from my phone for a few moves, which makes it hard to comment (or even move).
The first question was whether anyone would play a king in the first four moves. I narrowly chose not to. Next question is whether White will play a king here. I mentioned the Chen Yaoye-Ke Jie game where precisely this corner formation by White (after , , White a, Black b became weak. However, I think that's a rare occurrence in games I play.
One thing about playing the king is that it (potentially) changes the value of the c-d trade. Once White has one king, playing the second is free. Of course, if so, that doesn't imply the first king was a good idea.
Btw: I looked at this fuseki, and I see that Black usually prefers to approach in the upper right before playing . I don't think my comments depend on assuming we complete the joseki immediately.
Didn't really consider any other moves, but I did consider whether or not I should make this a king. I've looked over continuations from this position, and I can't find any variations where white sacrifices this group in the corner. This does have the downside of making this group impossible to sacrifice, but I don't think there are any circumstances where I would want to do that anyway.
The real question is what comes next. I assume black will continue the joseki with a or b, and then I have to decide whether to finish the joseki with c or tenuki to d or e. I would like to tenuki in this situation, but the kingo variant adds some extra value to playing at c. There is effectively a group tax, so being sealed in the corner comes with an extra penalty. Plus any stones I can add to a group that is already alive are worth an extra point, so I would like to retain the opportunity to grow that group. I'll have to decide whether reducing the value of his outer influence is worth giving up those gains.
One rules clarification: if we make it to final scoring does white receive any komi?
Posted: Sat Sep 23, 2017 9:08 pm
by EdLee
Not for players.
jeromie wrote:This does have the downside of making this group impossible to sacrifice,
True for any king move in kingo; nothing particular about this corner situation.
A downside, indeed. How much will depend on the rest of the game.
I'm curious which "continuations" Jeromie studied: from joseki dictionaries or pro games ? I feel it's too early and heavy to make these 2 W stones 'priceless'. It means B has absolute ko threats here, versus without the king.
Posted: Sat Sep 23, 2017 9:11 pm
by EdLee
Hi Jeromie,
jeromie wrote:I can't find any variations where white sacrifices this group in the corner. This does have the downside of making this group impossible to sacrifice, but I don't think there are any circumstances where I would want to do that anyway.
Which resource(s) did you search ? Joseki dictionaries or pro game database ?
Posted: Sat Sep 23, 2017 9:41 pm
by EdLee
For luigi and players: I'm unclear on one of the rules ( also, re: Jeromie's komi question): please see post 14.
Re:
Posted: Sat Sep 23, 2017 9:42 pm
by jeromie
EdLee wrote:Hi Jeromie,
jeromie wrote:I can't find any variations where white sacrifices this group in the corner. This does have the downside of making this group impossible to sacrifice, but I don't think there are any circumstances where I would want to do that anyway.
Which resource(s) did you search ? Joseki dictionaries or pro game database ?
I made a (non-exhaustive) search at ps.waltheri.net and looked at josekipedia as well. I'm sure that there is a game (or even many games!) where white did sacrifice the corner, but I looked through enough resources to feel it is probably uncommon and I think I can keep the group alive without taking a global loss.
Re:
Posted: Sun Sep 24, 2017 3:27 am
by luigi
EdLee wrote:For luigi and players: I'm unclear on one of the rules ( also, re: Jeromie's komi question): please see post 14.
jeromie, hyperpape, I'm a much worse Go player than you are, but, if it's too late for you guys to impartially agree on a komi value, I'll set it at 6 points and decree that the button be used to break ties.
Re: Re:
Posted: Sun Sep 24, 2017 6:40 am
by jeromie
luigi wrote:
EdLee wrote:For luigi and players: I'm unclear on one of the rules ( also, re: Jeromie's komi question): please see post 14.
jeromie, hyperpape, I'm a much worse Go player than you are, but, if it's too late for you guys to impartially agree on a komi value, I'll set it at 6 points and decree that the button be used to break ties.
That sounds fine to me, but since I gain the advantage by using komi I will defer to hyperpape.
Is 6 komi with a button equivalent to 6.5 komi? I think that's reasonable. My gut reaction is that I'd expect komi in this game to be similar. But I could be wrong.
Re: Kingo Malkovitch#1: Jeromie vs. Hyperpape
Posted: Sun Sep 24, 2017 12:19 pm
by Bill Spight
hyperpape wrote:Is 6 komi with a button equivalent to 6.5 komi?
7 pt. komi with a button (area scoring) is equivalent to a 6.5 komi (territory scoring), with some exceptions, such as having a seki with an odd number of dame.
,