Life In 19x19

Posted: **Sun Mar 18, 2018 3:20 pm**

Doesn't seem that bad to me - you can just extend from the attachment. But I'm guessing this is from some pro game or commentary, so I'll take your word for it.

Posted: **Sun Mar 18, 2018 5:41 pm**

As Kirby has alluded to, showing 1 move is insufficient to convince me that move 2 in these diagrams does refute my solution. A general comment on the position is that White seems to be doing very well territoriality. Hence capturing the cutting stone is a key priority, and there are two ways of doing that. It seems unlikely that either approach lead to a collapse in the corner.

For instance, the sequences below looks good for White. In the first one, for example, white seems to have a solid lead in territory; and black has a weak shape. In the seond one, white again is doing well in territory, and black's wall faces a strong group and is useless.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wc $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . O X X O . O . O X . | $$ | . X O O . . . . O . O X O O . O O X . | $$ | X . X O . . O . . . O X X O . O X . . | $$ | . X X O . O . . . , . . X O O X X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . O O O . X O . . . . . | $$ | . . X . . . X . . . X . X O . X . . . | $$ | . X . . . . . . X . . X . X X . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . O X . . | $$ | . O . . . . . . . . . . X O O . . X . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . X . . . O . X . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . O O X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O O . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1 X O . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . 5 . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 4 . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . X . . . . 6 2 . . . | $$ | . . O . . X . X . . . . X . . O 3 . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . 7 . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wc Ladder still not broken. $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . O X X O . O . O X . | $$ | . X O O . . . . O . O X O O . O O X . | $$ | X . X O . . O . . . O X X O . O X . . | $$ | . X X O . O . . . , . . X O O X X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . O O O . X O . . . . . | $$ | . . X . . . X . . . X . X O . X . . . | $$ | . X . . . . . . X . . X . X X . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . O X . . | $$ | . O . . . . . . . . . . X O O . . X . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . X . . . O . X . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . O O X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O O . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1 X O . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . X . . . 8 6 2 4 . . | $$ | . . O . . X . X . . . . X 7 5 O 3 . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . 9 . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

So I guess B need to do better than this. The only thing that occurs to me is below, but this looks like a struggle as well. White may have better moves at 5, as well.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wc $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . O X X O . O . O X . | $$ | . X O O . . . . O . O X O O . O O X . | $$ | X . X O . . O . . . O X X O . O X . . | $$ | . X X O . O . . . , . . X O O X X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . O O O . X O . . . . . | $$ | . . X . . . X . . . X . X O . X . . . | $$ | . X . . . . . . X . . X . X X . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . O X . . | $$ | . O . . . . . . . . . . X O O . . X . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . X . . . O . X . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . O O X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O O . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1 X O . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . 7 . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . X . . . . 6 2 5 . . | $$ | . . O . . X . X . . . . X . 4 O 3 . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Edited to add: Black's best chance of winning is probably going for a central moyo after doing something in the corner. In that case, white may be better off doing the other capture with 7 in the last diagram, to stop black getting a sente move helping the moyo.

Posted: **Mon Mar 19, 2018 12:14 am**

Kirby wrote: But I'm guessing this is from some pro game or commentary, so I'll take your word for it.

I don't think this a pro game, given the inefficient placement of some stones. Knowing Gomoto, I think the commentator is probably a strong bot.

Posted: **Mon Mar 19, 2018 5:59 am**

(good for black)

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wc $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . O X X O . O . O X . | $$ | . X O O . . . . O . O X O O . O O X . | $$ | X . X O . . O . . . O X X O . O X . . | $$ | . X X O . O . . . , . . X O O X X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . O O O . X O . . . . . | $$ | . . X . . . X . . . X . X O . X . . . | $$ | . X . . . . . . X . . X . X X . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . O X . . | $$ | . O . . . . . . . . . . X O O . . X . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . X . . . O . X . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . O O X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O O . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1 . O . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . 7 . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . X . . . . 4 2 6 . . | $$ | . . O . . X . X . . . . X . . O 3 8 . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . 5 0 . . 9 . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Posted: **Mon Mar 19, 2018 6:22 am**

Uberdude: I don't think this a pro game, given the inefficient placement of some stones. Knowing Gomoto, I think the commentator is probably a strong bot.

When reviewing my own games (I review each of them) or studying go I always use a combination of pro go databases and strong AI to analyze the moves.

In this case ("Are you the first to find the tesuji") my main motivation is to improve my own tesuji knowledge. I start with a tesuji idea (e.g. from a book) and search for an application in real games (perhaps I missed the tesuji in one of my own games or I search for the tesuji in my pro database). I used a pro game as a starting point for this problem, but I tortured the kifu heavily to achieve two secondary goals: I had to change the global position to make sure the local tesuji is the biggest move, and nurturing the autistic part of my personality i also wanted an about even score for the problem position.

I enjoy studying tesuji this way because when applying tesuji to my own games I have to make sure not to just play blindly the local good move, but also be always aware of the whole board relations.

I posted this byproduct of my own tesuji studying, because I thought some of you might enjoy to look for the tesuji too and because I enjoy to discuss about go with you (by comparing variations mainly).

Posted: **Mon Mar 19, 2018 6:28 am**

Gomoto wrote:(good for black)
$$Wc
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . O X X O . O . O X . |
$$ | . X O O . . . . O . O X O O . O O X . |
$$ | X . X O . . O . . . O X X O . O X . . |
$$ | . X X O . O . . . , . . X O O X X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . O O O . X O . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . X . . . X . X O . X . . . |
$$ | . X . . . . . . X . . X . X X . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . O X . . |
$$ | . O . . . . . . . . . . X O O . . X . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . X . . . O . X . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . O O X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1 . O . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . 7 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . X . . . . 4 2 6 . . |
$$ | . . O . . X . X . . . . X . . O 3 8 . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . 5 0 . . 9 . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . O X X O . O . O X . | $$ | . X O O . . . . O . O X O O . O O X . | $$ | X . X O . . O . . . O X X O . O X . . | $$ | . X X O . O . . . , . . X O O X X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . O O O . X O . . . . . | $$ | . . X . . . X . . . X . X O . X . . . | $$ | . X . . . . . . X . . X . X X . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . O X . . | $$ | . O . . . . . . . . . . X O O . . X . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . X . . . O . X . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . O O X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O O . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1 . O . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . 7 . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . X . . . . 4 2 6 . . | $$ | . . O . . X . X . . . . X . . O 3 8 . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . 5 0 . . 9 . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

How about this? Looks good for W to me.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wc $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . O X X O . O . O X . | $$ | . X O O . . . . O . O X O O . O O X . | $$ | X . X O . . O . . . O X X O . O X . . | $$ | . X X O . O . . . , . . X O O X X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . O O O . X O . . . . . | $$ | . . X . . . X . . . X . X O . X . . . | $$ | . X . . . . . . X . . X . X X . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . O X . . | $$ | . O . . . . . . . . . . X O O . . X . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . X . . . O . X . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . O O X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O O . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1 X O . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . X . . . . 4 2 5 . . | $$ | . . O . . X . X . . . . X . . O 3 . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Posted: **Mon Mar 19, 2018 6:46 am**

Posted: **Mon Mar 19, 2018 7:14 am**

I surrender

After comparing the outcomes of P6 and Q7, drmwc`s move seems to be at least a valid alternative. Now which of the both alternatives is the better one? I am not able to decide

And I propose a new problem position to make sure the tesuji at P6 is the best move:
(Allthough white is loosing in this new position already

Thanks to everybody helping to improve the problem.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$c $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . O X X O . O . O X . | $$ | . X O O . . . . O . O X O O . O O X . | $$ | X . X O . . O . . . O X X O . O X . . | $$ | . X X O . O . . . , . . X O O X X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . O O O . X O . . . . . | $$ | . . X . . . X . . . X . X O . X . . . | $$ | . X . . . . . . X . . X . X X . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . O X . . | $$ | . O . . . . . . . . . . X O O . . X . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . X . B . O . X . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . O O X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O O . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . X . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . O . . X . X . . . . X . . O . . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Posted: **Mon Mar 19, 2018 7:29 am**

Ok. It's always a strong statement to say that there is only one good move.

Anyway, thanks for the problem.

Posted: **Mon Mar 19, 2018 11:57 am**

I guess why my move is duff comes to a comparison of:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wc Duff $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . O X X O . O . O X . | $$ | . X O O . . . . O . O X O O . O O X . | $$ | X . X O . . O . . . O X X O . O X . . | $$ | . X X O . O . . . , . . X O O X X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . O O O . X O . . . . . | $$ | . . X . . . X . . . X . X O . X . . . | $$ | . X . . . . . . X . . X . X X . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . O X . . | $$ | . O . . . . . . . . . . X O O . . X . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . X . . . O . X . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . O O X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O O . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1 X O . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . X . . . . 4 2 5 . . | $$ | . . O . . X . X . . . . X . . O 3 . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

against:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$W $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . O X X O . O . O X . | $$ | . X O O . . . . O . O X O O . O O X . | $$ | X . X O . . O . . . O X X O . O X . . | $$ | . X X O . O . . . , . . X O O X X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . O O O . X O . . . . . | $$ | . . X . . . X . . . X . X O . X . . . | $$ | . X . . . . . . X . . X . X X . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . O X . . | $$ | . O . . . . . . . . . . X O O . . X . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . X . . . O . X . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . O O X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O O . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . 6 7 . X O . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . 1 . 5 . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 4 . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . X . . . . . 2 3 . . | $$ | . . O . . X . X . . . . X . 8 O 9 . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

It's an interesting question.

- Black seems to have more forcing moves in the centre in the second diagram.
- Black's shape in the lower right corner is worse in the second diagram.
- The lower side is more open in the first diagram.

On balance, my preference (for White) is for the first diagram. However, if a strong bot says the second is best, it's more likely to be correct than me.

Thanks for the problem - it was fun.

Posted: **Mon Mar 19, 2018 12:24 pm**

Kirby wrote:It's always a strong statement to say that there is only one good move.

Worth repeating.

Posted: **Mon Mar 19, 2018 1:30 pm**

Only one move ...

... should be the aim of a good problem probably? I failed in my first try

Posted: **Mon Mar 19, 2018 1:36 pm**

... if a strong bot says ...

funny thing is the strong bots don`t agree with each other most of the time. Even if they are about the same strength.

-> there is no absolute truth in go

Life In 19x19

Are you the first to find the tesuji?

Re: Are you the first to find the tesuji?

Re: Are you the first to find the tesuji?

Re: Are you the first to find the tesuji?

Re: Are you the first to find the tesuji?

Re: Are you the first to find the tesuji?

Re: Are you the first to find the tesuji?

Re: Are you the first to find the tesuji?

Re: Are you the first to find the tesuji?

Re: Are you the first to find the tesuji?

Re: Are you the first to find the tesuji?

Re: Are you the first to find the tesuji?

Re: Are you the first to find the tesuji?

Re: Are you the first to find the tesuji?