Lee Jihyun vs. Lee Changho 2018-10-06 Strange Moves?

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Gomoto
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Re: Lee Jihyun vs. Lee Changho 2018-10-06 Strange Moves?

Post by Gomoto »

alternative continuations:
strange9.jpg
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strange10.jpg
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Last edited by Gomoto on Fri Oct 12, 2018 9:57 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Bill Spight
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Re: Lee Jihyun vs. Lee Changho 2018-10-06 Strange Moves?

Post by Bill Spight »

Elom wrote:Is 10% that big for Elf, though? :)
A less than 3% difference appears to be within Elf's margin of error at a setting of 100K playouts (which does not mean that the most frequent option gets that many playouts). To increase the margin of error to 10% probably means a setting of 10K playouts or fewer.
The Adkins Principle:
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— Winona Adkins

Visualize whirled peas.

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Bill Spight
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Re: Lee Jihyun vs. Lee Changho 2018-10-06 Strange Moves?

Post by Bill Spight »

Gomoto wrote:Let us have a look at some pro games and try to explore elfs reasoning.
strange1.jpg
strange2.jpg
Please note the Black stone at N-03. That stone supports the Black stone at K-03.
The Adkins Principle:
At some point, doesn't thinking have to go on?
— Winona Adkins

Visualize whirled peas.

Everything with love. Stay safe.
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Gomoto
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Re: Lee Jihyun vs. Lee Changho 2018-10-06 Strange Moves?

Post by Gomoto »

Next pro game:

Jiang Weijie, 9p - Park Junghwan, 9p, W+R (Komi 7.5)
18th Chinese League A, round 14, 2016-10-08
strange11.jpg
strange11.jpg (160.65 KiB) Viewed 14416 times
strange12.jpg
strange12.jpg (160.92 KiB) Viewed 14415 times
strange13.jpg
strange13.jpg (162.18 KiB) Viewed 14413 times
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Gomoto
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Re: Lee Jihyun vs. Lee Changho 2018-10-06 Strange Moves?

Post by Gomoto »

one more pro game:
strange15.jpg
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strange14.jpg
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Gomoto
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Re: Lee Jihyun vs. Lee Changho 2018-10-06 Strange Moves?

Post by Gomoto »

My personal conclusion:

The marked move seems to be too easy on white. I will consider a play at a first in my games.
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc
$$ +------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . O . . . . . .
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . X . a . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . Z O . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . X , . . . . . , . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . .[/go]
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Gomoto
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Re: Lee Jihyun vs. Lee Changho 2018-10-06 Strange Moves?

Post by Gomoto »

Challenge: Let us find a game were elf thinks the marked move is indeed a good move. (In other positions than in the original post.)

In these games it is not:

Lee Sedol, 9p - Shi Yue, 9p, W+R (Komi 6.5)
23rd Samsung Cup, group B, 2018-09-05
(6% loss)
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . a . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O O . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . O O X O X . X . O . X . O . . . . . |
$$ | . . X X X . . . . . . P . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
Wang Yuanjun, 8p - Park Yeonghun, 9p, W+R (Komi 6.5)
5th Kuksu Mountains Tournament, round 1, 2018-07-28
(21% loss)

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O O O . O O . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X O X . X . . . , . . . O . X . X . |
$$ | . X X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O . . X . . . O . . . . . O . O . . |
$$ | . . O X . . X X X O . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X O O X . O X X . . X X . X a . |
$$ | . O O O X X X . O X O . . O . . . . . |
$$ | . X X O . O O . O O X X . . . , O . . |
$$ | . . . O . O . O X X . X . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X X X . O . . . X . . . . . X P . |
$$ | . . . . . X X . X . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X . O . O . . . . . . . . d . O . . |
$$ | . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O X X X O O . . , . . . . . X . b . |
$$ | . O O O . X O . . . . . . c . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
Ahn Kukhyun, 8p - Tang Weixing, 9p, W+R (Komi 6.5)
22nd Samsung Cup, semi-final #1, 2017-11-06
(6% loss)
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O O O . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . a . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X P . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O , . . . . . , . . . . . , O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . X , . . . X . , X . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


In this game it is not too bad:

Cho Hanseung, 9p - Kim Seonryong, 9p, W+6.5 (Komi 6.5)
19th Korean Maxim Cup, round 1, 2018-01-22
(about the same as a)
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O a . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . . X X X X X . |
$$ | . . . , . O . . . , . . . X O , O . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . O . X . O . . |
$$ | . B O . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O X . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . O X X . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . O X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . O . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
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Bill Spight
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Re: Lee Jihyun vs. Lee Changho 2018-10-06 Strange Moves?

Post by Bill Spight »

Gomoto wrote:Challenge: Let us find a game were elf thinks the marked move is indeed a good move. (In other positions than in the original post.)

In these games it is not:

Lee Sedol, 9p - Shi Yue, 9p, W+R (Komi 6.5)
23rd Samsung Cup, group B, 2018-09-05
(6% loss)
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . a . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O O . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . O O X O X . X . O . X . O . . . . . |
$$ | . . X X X . . . . . . P . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
The underneath attachment at M-02 is textbook play. It featured prominently in the first book I bought about invasions when I was 4 kyu. If there was any time for such a defensive play, this looks like it, doesn't it?
The Adkins Principle:
At some point, doesn't thinking have to go on?
— Winona Adkins

Visualize whirled peas.

Everything with love. Stay safe.
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Gomoto
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Re: Lee Jihyun vs. Lee Changho 2018-10-06 Strange Moves?

Post by Gomoto »

Yes, this is why I find it so interesting what elf thinks about it.

(This is not about bashing moves from the armchair ;-). This is about getting a finer distinction when the "standard" move really is the best option and when to look for alternatives first.)
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