Position #8: White to play. This is from a Fox 2k vs. 2k game.
$$Wc
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . O . . . X X O . X . . . . . |
$$ | X . X O . . . O . O . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . X O X . . . . . . . O . X . . . . . |
$$ | . O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . O . O . O . . |
$$ | . . X . X . . . . . . X X O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . X O O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . X X X X X O . . |
$$ | . X X . X . . . . . O O X O . . . . . |
$$ | . O X . . . . . . . . . O O X X X . . |
$$ | . O O O . . . . . . O . . . . O . X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . X O . . . . . O O O |
$$ | . . . O . X . . . , X O O O O O X X . |
$$ | . . . . O X . . . . X X O X X X X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------
[go]$$Wc
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . O . . . X X O . X . . . . . |
$$ | X . X O . . . O . O . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . X O X . . . . . . . O . X . . . . . |
$$ | . O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . O . O . O . . |
$$ | . . X . X . . . . . . X X O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . X O O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . X X X X X O . . |
$$ | . X X . X . . . . . O O X O . . . . . |
$$ | . O X . . . . . . . . . O O X X X . . |
$$ | . O O O . . . . . . O . . . . O . X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . X O . . . . . O O O |
$$ | . . . O . X . . . , X O O O O O X X . |
$$ | . . . . O X . . . . X X O X X X X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
This is the move suggested by LeelaZero. It occurs frequently in invasion sequences, and yet it is still not obvious to me. Instead I played "a" and let Black connect underneath, which is a -17% mistake.
$$Wc
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . O . . . X X O . X . . . . . |
$$ | X . X O . . . O . O a W . . . , X . . |
$$ | . X O X . . . . . . . O . X . . . . . |
$$ | . O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
[go]$$Bcm2
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . 9 . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X X O . 5 . . . . 7 8 . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . O 6 . 3 X X O . X . . . . . |
$$ | X . X O . . . O 4 O 1 W . . . , X . . |
$$ | . X O X . . . . . . 2 O . X . . . . . |
$$ | . O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |[/go]
but this is even worse for Black because it hurts the upper right corner:
$$Wcm11
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . X 3 . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X X O . X 2 . 4 . X O . . . 5 . . |
$$ | . . X O . O O . X X X O 1 X . . . . . |
$$ | X . X O . . . O O O X W . . . , X . . |
$$ | . X O X . . . . . . O O . X . . . . . |
$$ | . O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
[go]$$Wcm11
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . X 3 . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X X O . X 2 . 4 . X O . . . 5 . . |
$$ | . . X O . O O . X X X O 1 X . . . . . |
$$ | X . X O . . . O O O X W . . . , X . . |
$$ | . X O X . . . . . . O O . X . . . . . |
$$ | . O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |[/go]
Re: Shapes to remember (SDK level)
Posted: Wed Oct 30, 2019 3:14 pm
by jlt
Position #9 : White to play.
$$Wc
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . X X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X O . O . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X O . X . O O X . . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . O X . . . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . O . X . . . . . X O . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . O O O O O . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . O X X X X . . . O . O O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . O . . X . O . X O X . |
$$ | . X . O . O X X . , . . . . . O X X . |
$$ | . . O . . . O . X . . X X O . O X . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . X . . . . . . O X X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------
[go]$$Wc
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . 7 X X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . 6 5 X O . O . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . 4 3 X O . X . O O X . . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . O X . . . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . O . X . . . . . X O . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . |
$$ | 0 8 1 O . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . |
$$ | . 9 . . . . . . . . X . . 2 . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |[/go]
$$Wcm11 :b20: at :w11:
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . 9 O . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X O . O . O . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | 6 X O . O . X . O O X . . . . X O . . |
$$ | 3 4 X O . . . . O X . . . . . X O . . |
$$ | 1 2 X O . . . . O . X . . . . . X O . |
$$ | 7 8 X O . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . |
$$ | X X O O . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . |
$$ | 5 O . . . . . . . . X . . X . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
[go]$$Wcm11 :b20: at :w11:
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . 9 O . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X O . O . O . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | 6 X O . O . X . O O X . . . . X O . . |
$$ | 3 4 X O . . . . O X . . . . . X O . . |
$$ | 1 2 X O . . . . O . X . . . . . X O . |
$$ | 7 8 X O . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . |
$$ | X X O O . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . |
$$ | 5 O . . . . . . . . X . . X . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |[/go]
I often fail to see these kinds of moves because I forget that cutting stones, even if eventually captured, can help to provide sente moves.
Re: Shapes to remember (SDK level)
Posted: Sat Nov 16, 2019 6:28 am
by jlt
Position #10: a move that both players (KGS 3k and 4k) failed to see during most of the game. Black to play.
Then Leelazero hesitates between a and b. Both are good for Black.
Re: Shapes to remember (SDK level)
Posted: Mon Nov 25, 2019 7:00 am
by jlt
Position #11.
No-komi game against a Fox 3k, I am white. What to do of the marked stones?
$$Wc White to play
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . O O X . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X X O . . . O O . O X X X . . . |
$$ | . . X X O . O X X X X O O X O X . . . |
$$ | . X O O O . . X O O O O O O O , X . . |
$$ | . X . . . . . . X . X . X X X X . . X |
$$ | . . X . O . . X . . . . X O O O X X O |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . O O O |
$$ | . . . . O O . X . . X . . O . O O X X |
$$ | . . X X X O . . . . . . . . O X X X . |
$$ | . . X W W X . O . , . . . . . O X . O |
$$ | . . W X W . . . . . . . . . . O O X . |
$$ | . . W X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O . . |
$$ | . . O O O . . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . X X X O O O . . . . . X . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X X O . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------
[go]$$Wc White to play
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . O O X . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X X O . . . O O . O X X X . . . |
$$ | . . X X O . O X X X X O O X O X . . . |
$$ | . X O O O . . X O O O O O O O , X . . |
$$ | . X . . . . . . X . X . X X X X . . X |
$$ | . . X . O . . X . . . . X O O O X X O |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . O O O |
$$ | . . . . O O . X . . X . . O . O O X X |
$$ | . . X X X O . . . . . . . . O X X X . |
$$ | . . X W W X . O . , . . . . . O X . O |
$$ | . . W X W . . . . . . . . . . O O X . |
$$ | . . W X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O . . |
$$ | . . O O O . . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . X X X O O O . . . . . X . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X X O . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
It's hard to save both groups. Better sacrifice the one on the edge and build a strong center
$$Wc
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . O O X . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X X O . . . O O . O X X X . . . |
$$ | . . X X O . O X X X X O O X O X . . . |
$$ | . X O O O . . X O O O O O O O , X . . |
$$ | . X . . . . . . X . X . X X X X . . X |
$$ | . . X . O . . X . . . . X O O O X X O |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . O O O |
$$ | . . . . O O . X . . X . . O . O O X X |
$$ | . . X X X O . . . . . . . . O X X X . |
$$ | . . X O O X . O . , . . . . . O X . O |
$$ | . . O X O . . . . . . . . . . O O X . |
$$ | . . O X . 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . 2 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O . . |
$$ | . . O O O . . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . X X X O O O . . . . . X . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X X O . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------
[go]$$Wc
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . O O X . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X X O . . . O O . O X X X . . . |
$$ | . . X X O . O X X X X O O X O X . . . |
$$ | . X O O O . . X O O O O O O O , X . . |
$$ | . X . . . . . . X . X . X X X X . . X |
$$ | . . X . O . . X . . . . X O O O X X O |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . O O O |
$$ | . . . . O O . X . . X . . O . O O X X |
$$ | . . X X X O . . . . . . . . O X X X . |
$$ | . . X O O X . O . , . . . . . O X . O |
$$ | . . O X O . . . . . . . . . . O O X . |
$$ | . . O X . 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . 2 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O . . |
$$ | . . O O O . . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . X X X O O O . . . . . X . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X X O . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
The above move is sente, since it threatens to save the two white stones, so Black responds with . Then White can play elsewhere.
I've seen this kind of shape before, like in move 8 of this joseki
The next move is not easy to find. Katago suggests
$$Wc
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . O O X . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X X O . . . O O . O X X X . . . |
$$ | . . X X O . O X X X X O O X O X . . . |
$$ | . X O O O . . X O O O O O O O , X . . |
$$ | . X . . . . . . X . X . X X X X . . X |
$$ | . . X . O . . X . . . . X O O O X X O |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . O O O |
$$ | . . . . O O . X . . X . . O . O O X X |
$$ | . . X X X O . . . . . . . . O X X X . |
$$ | . . X O O X . O . , . . . . . O X . O |
$$ | . . O X O . . . . . . . . . . O O X . |
$$ | . . O X . 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . a . 2 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . 3 . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O . . |
$$ | . . O O O . . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . b X X X O O O . . . . . X . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X X O . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------
[go]$$Wc
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . O O X . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X X O . . . O O . O X X X . . . |
$$ | . . X X O . O X X X X O O X O X . . . |
$$ | . X O O O . . X O O O O O O O , X . . |
$$ | . X . . . . . . X . X . X X X X . . X |
$$ | . . X . O . . X . . . . X O O O X X O |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . O O O |
$$ | . . . . O O . X . . X . . O . O O X X |
$$ | . . X X X O . . . . . . . . O X X X . |
$$ | . . X O O X . O . , . . . . . O X . O |
$$ | . . O X O . . . . . . . . . . O O X . |
$$ | . . O X . 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . a . 2 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . 3 . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O . . |
$$ | . . O O O . . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . b X X X O O O . . . . . X . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X X O . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
It seems that this move threatens "a" which saves the two stones, and "b" which seems to kill the corner by ko if I am not mistaken.
$$Wcm3
$$ | . 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O . . |
$$ | . . O O O . . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . 3 X X X O O O . . . . . X . X . . . |
$$ | 5 4 . 6 . X X O . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . 7 8 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------
[go]$$Wcm3
$$ | . 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O . . |
$$ | . . O O O . . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . 3 X X X O O O . . . . . X . X . . . |
$$ | 5 4 . 6 . X X O . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . 7 8 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
Re: Shapes to remember (SDK level)
Posted: Mon Dec 16, 2019 1:22 am
by jlt
Position #12.
In this game, I was white, 7k EGF, playing against 2k EGF. This game showed how weak my endgame is: Katago estimates that I was leading by 10 points/91% winrate at move 147, and yet I lost by 15.5 points.
White to play and make a good endgame move.
$$Wc White to play
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . X . X X O O O . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . O X X O X O . O . . O O . |
$$ | . . O X . X X O O O X O X . O O X X . |
$$ | . O X . . . O . . X X . . . . X . X . |
$$ | . O X . . . . . O . . O O X . X X . . |
$$ | . O X . . . . . O . . . O O X . X X . |
$$ | O X X . X X O . . . . . . X O O . O O |
$$ | . O X O O X O . . . . . . . . . O X . |
$$ | . O . , X O . . . , . . . . O , X . X |
$$ | . . . X X O . O . O . X . . . . . X . |
$$ | . . X . X O . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . X X O X X . X . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O O . . . . . X . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . X X X X X . O O O O . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X O O O O . O X X O O . . . O . X . |
$$ | . O O X X . O X X X X O . O . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . X X O O X . X O . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------
[go]$$Wc White to play
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . X . X X O O O . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . O X X O X O . O . . O O . |
$$ | . . O X . X X O O O X O X . O O X X . |
$$ | . O X . . . O . . X X . . . . X . X . |
$$ | . O X . . . . . O . . O O X . X X . . |
$$ | . O X . . . . . O . . . O O X . X X . |
$$ | O X X . X X O . . . . . . X O O . O O |
$$ | . O X O O X O . . . . . . . . . O X . |
$$ | . O . , X O . . . , . . . . O , X . X |
$$ | . . . X X O . O . O . X . . . . . X . |
$$ | . . X . X O . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . X X O X X . X . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O O . . . . . X . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . X X X X X . O O O O . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X O O O O . O X X O O . . . O . X . |
$$ | . O O X X . O X X X X O . O . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . X X O O X . X O . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
Katago says that White should start with the exchange a-b, then play c.
$$Wc
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . a b . X . X X O O O . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . O X X O X O . O . . O O . |
$$ | . . O X . X X O O O X O X . O O X X . |
$$ | . O X . . . O . . X X . . . . X . X . |
$$ | . O X . . . . . O . . O O X . X X . . |
$$ | . O X . . . . . O . . . O O X . X X . |
$$ | O X X . X X O . . . . . . Y O O . O O |
$$ | . O X O O X O . . . . d . . . . O X . |
$$ | . O . , X O . . . , . . . . O , X . X |
$$ | . . . X X O . O . O . B . . . . . X . |
$$ | . . X . X O . . . . . . . . c X . . . |
$$ | . . X X O X X . X . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O O . . . . . X . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . X X X X X . O O O O . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X O O O O . O X X O O . . . O . X . |
$$ | . O O X X . O X X X X O . O . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . X X O O X . X O . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------
[go]$$Wc
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . a b . X . X X O O O . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . O X X O X O . O . . O O . |
$$ | . . O X . X X O O O X O X . O O X X . |
$$ | . O X . . . O . . X X . . . . X . X . |
$$ | . O X . . . . . O . . O O X . X X . . |
$$ | . O X . . . . . O . . . O O X . X X . |
$$ | O X X . X X O . . . . . . Y O O . O O |
$$ | . O X O O X O . . . . d . . . . O X . |
$$ | . O . , X O . . . , . . . . O , X . X |
$$ | . . . X X O . O . O . B . . . . . X . |
$$ | . . X . X O . . . . . . . . c X . . . |
$$ | . . X X O X X . X . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O O . . . . . X . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . X X X X X . O O O O . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X O O O O . O X X O O . . . O . X . |
$$ | . O O X X . O X X X X O . O . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . X X O O X . X O . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
My reasoning was that threatens to enter my moyo, and at the same time to pull out the stone, so I protected at d. Katago says it loses "5 points". A better way of playing is to make sente moves starting with "c", which threaten to swallow , and protect the moyo afterwards. There are several lines of play, here is a simple one:
$$Wc
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . 1 2 . X . X X O O O . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . O X X O X O . O . . O O . |
$$ | . . O X . X X O O O X O X . O O X X . |
$$ | . O X . . . O . . X X . . . . X . X . |
$$ | . O X . . . . . O . . O O X . X X . . |
$$ | . O X . . . . . O . . . O O X . X X . |
$$ | O X X . X X O . . . . . . X O O . O O |
$$ | . O X O O X O . . . . . . . . . O X . |
$$ | . O . , X O . . . , . 9 . . O , X . X |
$$ | . . . X X O . O . O . X . . . 7 . X . |
$$ | . . X . X O . . . . 6 . . 5 3 X . . . |
$$ | . . X X O X X . X . . . . . 4 8 . . . |
$$ | . . X O O . . . . . X . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . X X X X X . O O O O . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X O O O O . O X X O O . . . O . X . |
$$ | . O O X X . O X X X X O . O . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . X X O O X . X O . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------
[go]$$Wc
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . 1 2 . X . X X O O O . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . O X X O X O . O . . O O . |
$$ | . . O X . X X O O O X O X . O O X X . |
$$ | . O X . . . O . . X X . . . . X . X . |
$$ | . O X . . . . . O . . O O X . X X . . |
$$ | . O X . . . . . O . . . O O X . X X . |
$$ | O X X . X X O . . . . . . X O O . O O |
$$ | . O X O O X O . . . . . . . . . O X . |
$$ | . O . , X O . . . , . 9 . . O , X . X |
$$ | . . . X X O . O . O . X . . . 7 . X . |
$$ | . . X . X O . . . . 6 . . 5 3 X . . . |
$$ | . . X X O X X . X . . . . . 4 8 . . . |
$$ | . . X O O . . . . . X . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . X X X X X . O O O O . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X O O O O . O X X O O . . . O . X . |
$$ | . O O X X . O X X X X O . O . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . X X O O X . X O . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
Re: Shapes to remember (SDK level)
Posted: Mon Dec 16, 2019 2:13 am
by Knotwilg
What I learnt from pro games is that in the early endgame it's not so much about points but about life and death. In the late endgame it's easier to calculate what is sente and what is the biggest gote. In the early endgame there are so many mutual implications that this is harder. So one first needs to identify the areas where there is or will be major impact on groups, whether they are immediately sente or not.
Attemmpt:
$$Wc White to play
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . b . . . X . X X O O O . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . O X X O X O . O . . O O . |
$$ | . . O X . X X O O O X O X . O O X X . |
$$ | . O X . . c O . . X X . . . . X . X . |
$$ | . O X . . . . . O . . O O X . X X . . |
$$ | . O X . . d . . O . . . O O X . X X . |
$$ | O X X . X X O . . . . . . X O O g O O |
$$ | . O X O O X O . . . . . . . . . O X . |
$$ | . O . , X O . . . , . . . . O , X . X |
$$ | . . . X X O . O . O . X . . . . . X . |
$$ | . . X . X O . . . . . . . f . X . . . |
$$ | . . X X O X X . X e . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O O . . . . . X . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . X X X X X . O O O O . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X O O O O . O X X O O . . . O . X . |
$$ | . O O X X . O X X X X O . O . . O a . |
$$ | . . . . . X X O O X . X O . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------
[go]$$Wc White to play
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . b . . . X . X X O O O . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . O X X O X O . O . . O O . |
$$ | . . O X . X X O O O X O X . O O X X . |
$$ | . O X . . c O . . X X . . . . X . X . |
$$ | . O X . . . . . O . . O O X . X X . . |
$$ | . O X . . d . . O . . . O O X . X X . |
$$ | O X X . X X O . . . . . . X O O g O O |
$$ | . O X O O X O . . . . . . . . . O X . |
$$ | . O . , X O . . . , . . . . O , X . X |
$$ | . . . X X O . O . O . X . . . . . X . |
$$ | . . X . X O . . . . . . . f . X . . . |
$$ | . . X X O X X . X e . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O O . . . . . X . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . X X X X X . O O O O . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X O O O O . O X X O O . . . O . X . |
$$ | . O O X X . O X X X X O . O . . O a . |
$$ | . . . . . X X O O X . X O . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
The border plays that jump to the eye are A and B. A s simply large. B may have that particular quality of impacting the life of the corner group. At first glance if Black plays there it will be sente or at least have large follow-ups.
There is aji to exploit at C and D but nothing major and these moves may be kind of miai.
There are cuts at E and F to make something of the center, but it's probably small.
And then there is G. It makes 6 points already, the shape becomes better, and most of all it cuts Black into two groups. Now both of them are alive but later White will have sente moves against both of them.
I'm not sure this is the best move, but when leading it seems good enough to ensure victory.
Re: Shapes to remember (SDK level)
Posted: Mon Dec 16, 2019 3:06 am
by jlt
@Knotwilg: I didn't try all your moves, but according to Katago, "b" is not bad, while "a" and "g" are even worse than the move I played in my game.
Here is the game, in case someone would be interested.
Re: Shapes to remember (SDK level)
Posted: Mon Dec 16, 2019 6:16 am
by Knotwilg
jlt wrote:@Knotwilg: I didn't try all your moves, but according to Katago, "b" is not bad, while "a" and "g" are even worse than the move I played in my game.
To be fair to myself, I thought B was too trivial to be worthy of exercise, so I looked for something more interesting. With hindsight G is not sente and neither will it bring about much sente against any of the separated groups. B is a sente border play for Black and White has a good follow-up if Black doesn't answer.
Nice endgame exercise!
Re: Shapes to remember (SDK level)
Posted: Thu Jan 02, 2020 8:53 am
by jlt
Position #13: this one should be obvious but both players, IGS 6k, got it wrong.
Black to play. What are the next few moves?
$$Bc
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . O . . |
$$ | . . O . O X . . . . X X . O . O X . . |
$$ | . . . , . X . . X X O X O . O X X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . X . O O O X . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . X . . O . . . X . . X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . X O . . . O . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . X . . . . . . . X . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . O . . O . . . . . X O . |
$$ | . . O , . . . . . , . . X . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . O . X . . . . . , . . . . . , O . . |
$$ | . . X . . X . . . . . X . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------
[go]$$Bc
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . O . . |
$$ | . . O . O X . . . . X X . O . O X . . |
$$ | . . . , . X . . X X O X O . O X X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . X . O O O X . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . X . . O . . . X . . X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . X O . . . O . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . X . . . . . . . X . . . 5 3 . |
$$ | . . . . . . . O . . O . . . . 4 X O . |
$$ | . . O , . . . . . , . . X . . , 2 1 . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O 6 . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . O . X . . . . . , . . . . . , O . . |
$$ | . . X . . X . . . . . X . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
And then tenuki! Losing sente so early in the game by capturing at T11 is evil!
(In the actual game, Black captured at T11, which is 4-point mistake according to Katago, but then White protected the cut at P10, which is an equally big mistake...)
Re: Shapes to remember (SDK level)
Posted: Thu Jan 02, 2020 9:39 am
by TelegraphGo
I thought this was going to be about black trying this common shape:
$$Bc Black is overexcited.
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . O . . |
$$ | . . O . O X . . . . X X . O . O X . . |
$$ | . . . , . X . . X X O X O . O X X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . X . O O O X . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . X . . O . . . X . . X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . X O . . . O . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . X . . . . . . . X . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . O . . O . . . . . X O . |
$$ | . . O , . . . . . , . . X . . , 2 1 . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O 3 . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . O . X . . . . . , . . . . . , O . . |
$$ | . . X . . X . . . . . X . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------
[go]$$Bc Black is overexcited.
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . O . . |
$$ | . . O . O X . . . . X X . O . O X . . |
$$ | . . . , . X . . X X O X O . O X X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . X . O O O X . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . X . . O . . . X . . X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . X O . . . O . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . X . . . . . . . X . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . O . . O . . . . . X O . |
$$ | . . O , . . . . . , . . X . . , 2 1 . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O 3 . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . O . X . . . . . , . . . . . , O . . |
$$ | . . X . . X . . . . . X . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
If white backs off at S8, this is an improvement on the game. So a fight's about to go down! But unfortunately, black doesn't have the strength to do this here. How does white win the fight?
$$Wc
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . O . . |
$$ | . . O . O X . . . . X X . O . O X . . |
$$ | . . . , . X . . X X O X O . O X X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . X . O O O X . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . X . . O . . . X . . X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . X O . . . O . . . . . . 4 . |
$$ | . . X . X . . . . . . . X . . . 2 1 . |
$$ | . . . . . . . O . . O . . . . . X O . |
$$ | . . O , . . . . . , . . X . . , O X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X 5 |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . a 3 . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . O . X . . . . . , . . . . . , O . . |
$$ | . . X . . X . . . . . X . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------
[go]$$Wc
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . O . . |
$$ | . . O . O X . . . . X X . O . O X . . |
$$ | . . . , . X . . X X O X O . O X X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . X . O O O X . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . X . . O . . . X . . X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . X O . . . O . . . . . . 4 . |
$$ | . . X . X . . . . . . . X . . . 2 1 . |
$$ | . . . . . . . O . . O . . . . . X O . |
$$ | . . O , . . . . . , . . X . . , O X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X 5 |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . a 3 . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . O . X . . . . . , . . . . . , O . . |
$$ | . . X . . X . . . . . X . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
Compared to the game variation, black is worse and white is better. It's a disaster. The reason things fell apart was white's one random stone at R14 enabling a ladder that forces black to play 2 as shown instead of at a. The followup at a was black's intent when they extended under like this - preventing it means white is better. This is such a clean example of middlegame fighting shape, I was positive it was close to the game until I opened your hide tag
Re: Shapes to remember (SDK level)
Posted: Wed Jan 15, 2020 2:04 am
by jlt
Position #14: this one should be easy. Edit: I forgot to say that it was White to move, thanks dfan.
$$Wc
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O O O . O . . X . . . . X O . . . . |
$$ | . O X X O . . . . , . . . X . O O . . |
$$ | . X . X X O O . . . . . . . . O X . . |
$$ | . . O . . X . . . . . . . . O O X . . |
$$ | . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X . O . . O . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . O X X O . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . X X O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------