Life In 19x19

Posted: **Fri Jun 26, 2020 1:41 pm**

"My gospel is holier than your gospel", said BlackHole to KataGo: http://www.yss-aya.com/cgos/viewer.cgi? ... 702940.sgf

Interestingly, the several KataGo versions on CGOS all have very negative scores against the BlackHole bot: http://www.yss-aya.com/cgos/19x19/cross ... 5v10k.html

Posted: **Fri Jun 26, 2020 3:01 pm**

Unless we know black hole is not running on superior hardware / time limits to its opponents, that doesn't say too much: as we recently saw elsewhere KataGo at 200k playouts can beat KataGo at 5k playouts with 3 handicaps.

Posted: **Mon Jun 29, 2020 10:06 am**

Uberdude,

I appreciate your work on the Leela Zero Opening Gospel … even I, being a DDK (fell back to 11k again), can learn from your LZOG, thank you!

And now that KaTrain exists (which made it easy even for me to install (including KataGo) on my Mac), can we hope for a “KZOG” from you also?

Posted: **Tue Jun 30, 2020 9:19 am**

Out of curiosity, where's the following move:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$W $$ . . . . . . . | $$ . . . a a . . | $$ . . . . 1 . . | $$ . . . , . . . | $$ . . . O . . . | $$ . . . . . . . | $$ . . . . . . . | $$ --------------+[/go]

~~Obviously I guess the argument is that it doesn't often arise because approaching it is so high priority. I assume it's effectively 2.5?~~

EDIT: Ignore this, I've just realised the reason I couldn't find it is because White plays at "a" here, and you'd included it in the 2) diagram.

This is interesting to me - with the other situations (preventing the press, preventing the double approach), playing an additional move to one's own stone was considered slightly lower priority in general than pressing or double approaching your opponent's equivalent shape, and an additional stone to support your solitary 4-4 was the end of the list. Is there a specific reason you've identified that "an additional move to our 3-4" is "as good as approaching the opponent's 3-4", treating it as slightly bigger/more urgent than the other analogous situations?

Posted: **Tue Jun 30, 2020 11:43 am**

Not sure that it's saying much, but if I run the AlphaGo teach tool on this position:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bc $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

I get this order of moves:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bc $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . 2 . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . | $$ | . . 3 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1 . . | $$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . . a , . . . | $$ | . . . . 4 . . . . . . . . . . O . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

On KataGo, I get slightly different results (e.g. press at 'a' instead of making a new approach). But I never see self-enclosure happen before approach. Maybe it has to do with the initial board setup - not sure.

My hunch is that approaching opponent is slightly better than enclosing yourself.

Posted: **Tue Jun 30, 2020 12:00 pm**

Yeah, that was my suspicion too:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$B $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . 1 . , X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1 . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]

^^ actually 2.5) ??

Life In 19x19

Leela Zero Opening Gospel: expanded and illustrated

Re: Leela Zero Opening Gospel: expanded and illustrated

Re: Leela Zero Opening Gospel: expanded and illustrated

Re: Leela Zero Opening Gospel: expanded and illustrated

Re: Leela Zero Opening Gospel: expanded and illustrated

Re: Leela Zero Opening Gospel: expanded and illustrated

Re: Leela Zero Opening Gospel: expanded and illustrated