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Opening problems for AI: Problem 3

https://www.lifein19x19.com/viewtopic.php?t=17558

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Re: Opening problems for AI: Problem 3

Posted: Fri Jun 19, 2020 12:42 pm
by Uberdude
Glad I revisited this thread, I'd missed John's post on Shibano!

Anyway, even though this position has many moves played, the LZ opening gospel can still provide guidance, as there a class 2 move available with that lonely 3-4 stone in a corner. The only caveat to the gospel that needs some judgement is "is there an urgent local situation?", it's easier to say no than yes, so then it recommends:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc White to play
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . X . X X . . O . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . O . . X . O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 1 1 . . . . . . . . . . O O O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . X . . . . X O X . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , X X . X O O O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . X O . O O O . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . O . . O X O X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . O . X X X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . O . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
The big low shimari is Elf's top choice, and the high is good too, and better than the human's move. Proselytize!

Gospel: 2, Humans: 0, N/A: 1

Re: Opening problems for AI: Problem 3

Posted: Sat Jul 25, 2020 9:50 am
by iopq
I thought it was black to move and I thought the correct thing is to play in the bottom right. I was right, fat KataGo wanted to 3-3 the bottom right with the win rate of 97%

But since this is white to move, fat KataGo (40b 384c) likes these two moves
two candidate moves
two candidate moves
Screenshot from 2020-07-26 00-36-00.png (921.02 KiB) Viewed 14246 times
the first variation could go something like this
first variation
first variation
Screenshot from 2020-07-26 00-43-31.png (856.43 KiB) Viewed 14246 times
the second variation could go something like this
second variation
second variation
Screenshot from 2020-07-26 00-49-12.png (852.98 KiB) Viewed 14246 times
The percentages are roughly the same, the one it liked initially doesn't look as good if you explore the "main line" but still roughly the same

Re: Opening problems for AI: Problem 3

Posted: Fri Jun 04, 2021 9:55 am
by dhu163
Speculatively:
Current position:
1. C14 comes to mind. B is pretty thick in the upper centre, so the main question is how to reduce it. Stay alive is key to preventing the opponent from attacking. W has no potential on the upper side, so I don't like D14 for example as the left is too big. C15 also comes to mind, but I still fear that B will get something on the left and cramp the corner. C14 has a weakness at D16 but my feeling is that W can move into the centre and build on the left by just responding to everything.
2. Any weak groups? S12 connects W's dragon, but J7 is still a key point in the centre. K8 J9 H7 also comes to mind.
3. Thin shape at S14 means B Q17 makes S13 sente and also threatens to cut at O15.
4. If B's centre was weak, L16 comes to mind, but W seems too thin atm.
5. Otherwise D6 comes to mind.
6. P3 Q4 N3 seems very natural too, defending W's dragon while using aji to close the lower side or lower centre. Actually P3 Q4 O2 P4 (seems forced due to S3 aji) N3 seems very nice. Or P3 S3 O4 with miai of N3 and Q4

Past:
1. I like W. 3 corners. B has a large lower right, but the aforementioned aji is annoying. I can't understand what the 4 in a row at O12 is doing.

Check:
1. Re: post 8: Takemiya: that makes a lot of sense when it is the last way to enter a big area that is even expanding into the centre. There are more follow ups of 2 space jumps and even a shape point at D9. But in the problem, B is pretty well alive and thick, W doesn't have space for another 2 space jump, the upper centre is still open from the left side (where W has potential) and O15/L16 ideas.
2. I need to understand why O3 directly is best after (S3 S2 exchange) rather than P3.
3. So my J7 was a terrible move.
4. B to play, I did think about D16
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