Life In 19x19

Bantari wrote:

Magicwand wrote:i also look for a place to resign when i play.
if i know i am losing by few point and no other way to overcome that margin i choose more complicated perhaps overplaylike move.
either i resign or i get another chance to win.

how is this theory?

Hmm...
On a pro level - this assumes a hope for a cheapo - a silly mistake on the part of your opponent.
Do you think this is a plausible theory?

It is plausable. I heard it directly from a pro. Tadashi Sasaki 8P was giving a simul in LA last year. After I lost - despite a substantial handicap - in the post game review he noted that when I was behind late in the game I should have played way more aggressively. I pointed out the obvious problem - that he was too strong everywhere. He said that it didn't matter. He said do it anyway, that to do otherwise was 'walking step by step into your grave.'

I don't know that it was exclusively a statement about tactics. It could have been about asthetics.

Joaz Banbeck wrote:It is plausable. I heard it directly from a pro. Tadashi Sasaki 8P was giving a simul in LA last year. After I lost - despite a substantial handicap - in the post game review he noted that when I was behind late in the game I should have played way more aggressively. I pointed out the obvious problem - that he was too strong everywhere. He said that it didn't matter. He said do it anyway, that to do otherwise was 'walking step by step into your grave.'

It is a different story, but very interesting, thanks.
In our case, the pro did not play 'more aggressively', but he played a move he knew was weak and silly (since John said it was NOT a hallucination.) So instead of what you say, play aggressively and hope for complications and some more chances, the pro dug himself even deeper into the hole, on purpose. John said that this kind of behavior could be indicative of 'setting the stage for resignation'. And this is what I don't understand.

What Magicawand says, and your theory - they are both good, but I am not sure they apply to the move we are discussing here and to the situation I am wondering about.

I believe it's a cultural thing and might be difficult to understand for western people. Losing because of a simple "overlook" may be preferred over a well deserved loss and may (at least partially) save ones face.

I disagree slightly that an Eastern vs Western thing because not limited to go.

If you follow high level chess you will sometimes see the same thing. A move that if there is a game cvommentary will be described as "despair". Essentially the player has decided the game is hopeless and must resign but it's a mental thing that may take a move or two more before being implemented. Also described both in chess and go as "looking for a place to resign".

I sometimes play on for a bit in a hopeless situation just because I don't like resigning.

All the comments I've read make it out to not just be an issue of the player's psychology, but of etiquette or aesthetics. Why one place is polite or otherwise appropriate is a huge mystery to me.

But at least I can recognize some easy cases. If you're playing on KGS, you'll occasionally see the person who waits until dame are filled, passes are made, and the score even flashes on the screen before hitting resign.

daniel_the_smith wrote:I sometimes play on for a bit in a hopeless situation just because I don't like resigning.

This is interesting, I do the opposite, I hate not resigning.

I generally keep on going until I feel it is not realistically possible for me to win, then resign instantly. I resigned a game recently with 4 or 5 remaining non-dame moves and 4 dame moves because I was 1.5 points behind, and I realised that even with really bad yose my opponent couldn't lose. I then wondered if this was too close to the end and would be considered rude (though my opponent didn't think so fortunately), but I figure as long as I hadn't dragged it out when 40 points behind to that point, it made some sense.

I've seen professionals resign games with 20 or so moves left when the game cannot be caught be up as well (and one I think was a 0.5 point loss from the commentary given, I even think it was Lee Changho but I can't remember so clearly now), so I'm guessing it's ok... what are other people's opinions on my behaviour above?

I don't think resigning any time is rude.

On contrary, continuing to play when the only hope is a silly mistake from the opponent can be rude. What a silly mistake is, depends on the levels of players of course. If a dan player tries to live with a completely surrounded L-group (especially in his opponents byo-yomi), I would find it rude because he obviously hopes for a silly mistake from his opponent. But if a 15k does the same thing, I would perceive it as trying out some possibilities.

I don't think resigning at any time is rude, but resigning after two passes is a KGS bug.

hyperpape wrote:All the comments I've read make it out to not just be an issue of the player's psychology, but of etiquette or aesthetics. Why one place is polite or otherwise appropriate is a huge mystery to me.

But at least I can recognize some easy cases. If you're playing on KGS, you'll occasionally see the person who waits until dame are filled, passes are made, and the score even flashes on the screen before hitting resign.

This is the easy "rude" case. Almost anything else tends to get benefit of the doubt from me. Also if you stop paying attention to the game (because you've "already won") that gives your opponent opportunity for an upset.

ethanb wrote:

hyperpape wrote:All the comments I've read make it out to not just be an issue of the player's psychology, but of etiquette or aesthetics. Why one place is polite or otherwise appropriate is a huge mystery to me.

But at least I can recognize some easy cases. If you're playing on KGS, you'll occasionally see the person who waits until dame are filled, passes are made, and the score even flashes on the screen before hitting resign.

This is the easy "rude" case. Almost anything else tends to get benefit of the doubt from me. Also if you stop paying attention to the game (because you've "already won") that gives your opponent opportunity for an upset.

I am surprised to see that many people find it rude to resign after two passes. I have never perceived it as rude and therefore I also do it occasionally.

I don't understand why it is rude. The winner is the same, he doesn't have to wait until the last byo-yomi period (this would be rude indeed), he gets the same amount of points, everything is the same. Why is it rude? It just shows that you wanted to see the accurate score before resigning.

Nevertheless, if the general opinion is that it is rude, I will not do it again and maybe enroll to a basic course about human relationships

I'm not sure if I'd call it rude, but resigning just after seeing the score on KGS strikes me as positively weird. Surely the only reason for resigning is to save yourself time (and mental energy in playing the rest of the game out if you're so sure you're going to lose that it's not worth it) by not bothering to play the rest of the game. But if both have passed, determined and agreed on the dead stones, and the score has flashed up, then what's the point? Indeed, I'm even surprised to hear that one can resign at this point - surely as soon as both hit "OK" on the score popup then the game is counted as over anyway?

robinz wrote:I'm not sure if I'd call it rude, but resigning just after seeing the score on KGS strikes me as positively weird. Surely the only reason for resigning is to save yourself time (and mental energy in playing the rest of the game out if you're so sure you're going to lose that it's not worth it) by not bothering to play the rest of the game. But if both have passed, determined and agreed on the dead stones, and the score has flashed up, then what's the point? Indeed, I'm even surprised to hear that one can resign at this point - surely as soon as both hit "OK" on the score popup then the game is counted as over anyway?

But isn't it the same result? Why does it matter if you lose by 0.5 points or 150 points or resign?
For me it is enough reason to justify that behaivour if the mouse cursor is closer to the "resign" button.
But apparently it is generally perceived as rude. Ok point taken, I won't do it again.

I find it incredibly rude to be down 40+ points and play the game out to the final 0.5 ko (at the ~1d level, obviously things are different at the DDK level). There comes a point where you no longer have a chance to come back and you're really just wasting your opponent's time. However, if the game is close enough to justify playing it out to the scoring phase, I don't find it any ruder to resign than to just score the game normally.

I don't think resigning after two passes is a legitimate part of go. It's simply a KGS bug. In the scoring stage, the game is over - there's nothing to resign.