Anti-Doping in Practice from Player's Perspective

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Re: Anti-Doping in Practice from Player's Perspective

Post by RobertJasiek »

kirkmc wrote:you would see this very clearly.


I don't; I cannot distinguish between effective and harmless substances in medicine because almost always both have names I do not know.

Once again, millions of people follow this with no problem.


Really? How do you know? I have never heard any positive or negative report. Where have you gotten your millions of reports from?

A doctor can help you much more than anyone here.


I think suggestions like you give (show the list to the doctor) and other suggestions (never again visit a doctor without carrying the current list with you) should be given as FAQ information to the players.
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Re: Anti-Doping in Practice from Player's Perspective

Post by RobertJasiek »

pwaldron wrote: If you have concerns, print out the prohibited list and ask your doctor or pharmacist at the time the drug is prescribed and/or purchased.


It is something one needs to learn as a (strong) Go player.

The rest is just you being deliberately obtuse.


Sorry, but you know how doping trials work: You are going to having to prove anything you claim. The current situation of nebulous, hardly announced and even partially incomplete status of anti-doping rules documents and their changes puts the players in much greater than necessary danger. Only if we demand complete, precise and timely information, players will have a realistic chance to prove not being guilty.
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Re: Anti-Doping in Practice from Player's Perspective

Post by kirkmc »

RobertJasiek wrote:
kirkmc wrote:you would see this very clearly.


I don't; I cannot distinguish between effective and harmless substances in medicine because almost always both have names I do not know.

Once again, millions of people follow this with no problem.


Really? How do you know? I have never heard any positive or negative report. Where have you gotten your millions of reports from?

A doctor can help you much more than anyone here.


I think suggestions like you give (show the list to the doctor) and other suggestions (never again visit a doctor without carrying the current list with you) should be given as FAQ information to the players.


Robert, you can read _words_, correct? The names on the list are words; the names on a box of meds are words. You find the med you have, then you search in the list. As it's a PDF, you don't even have to read it; just type correctly.

As for millions, yes, there are millions of athletes who are affected by this. I've never heard any scandal about them not being able to print out a 9-page list and take it to their doctor. Frankly, such a suggestion doesn't need to be in a FAQ; it's common sense.

I'm getting the impression now that you're just trolling...
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Re: Anti-Doping in Practice from Player's Perspective

Post by kirkmc »

RobertJasiek wrote:
pwaldron wrote: If you have concerns, print out the prohibited list and ask your doctor or pharmacist at the time the drug is prescribed and/or purchased.


It is something one needs to learn as a (strong) Go player.

The rest is just you being deliberately obtuse.


Sorry, but you know how doping trials work: You are going to having to prove anything you claim. The current situation of nebulous, hardly announced and even partially incomplete status of anti-doping rules documents and their changes puts the players in much greater than necessary danger. Only if we demand complete, precise and timely information, players will have a realistic chance to prove not being guilty.


It's very clear from the WADA web site that the list of drugs is updated once a year, so I don't see this as being "nebulous" regarding such a list. As for how things are tested, that changes, but that's not really your problem.

Also, the document IGF Anti-Doping Regulations on the page you link to seems quite complete. So what's your gripe?
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Re: Anti-Doping in Practice from Player's Perspective

Post by daal »

Why introduce an unnecessary bureaucracy into the go world? What good does it do? As long as there are no go-enhancing drugs, such testing is nothing more than an invasion of privacy.

I can also empathize with Robert's desire for clarity in this issue. One should neither have to guess, google or make assumptions as to which is the current or valid list, and it seems to me perfectly valid to worry that a mistake or a misunderstanding of pharmaceutical terminology or labeling practice might cost one the right to participate in a go tournament.

BTW, a 9 page list is not "short."
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Re: Anti-Doping in Practice from Player's Perspective

Post by RobertJasiek »

kirkmc wrote: The names on the list are words; the names on a box of meds are words.


Example:
Name in the list: XXXXX.
Name on the box: XXXXX-YYYYY.

In this case, I would conclude: XXXXX-YYYYY is a special type of XXXXX. But if it were ZZZZZ in the list, where XXXXX-YYYYY is a type of ZZZZZ, I would overlook it.

print out a 9-page list and take it to their doctor. Frankly, such a suggestion doesn't need to be in a FAQ; it's common sense.


No, common sense is to trust one's doctor and accept whichever drug he prescribes.

I'm getting the impression now that you're just trolling...


The second thing here when somebody has a different opinion is to speak of trolling?
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Re: Anti-Doping in Practice from Player's Perspective

Post by RobertJasiek »

kirkmc wrote:It's very clear from the WADA web site that the list of drugs is updated once a year,


This tells us nothing about whether Go players have to use the WADA list at all or whether they have to use only the list(s) issued by the IGF.

Also, the document IGF Anti-Doping Regulations on the page you link to seems quite complete. So what's your gripe?


It is incomplete because it misses the IGF-WADA Gentleman Agreement and contradicts the latter. Players should know that the latter overrides the IGF Anti-Doping Regulations. Not stating the IGF-WADA Gentleman Agreement at all is misleading the players.
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Re: Anti-Doping in Practice from Player's Perspective

Post by Andd »

What exactly does that IGF do...? These doping regulations are strenuous to say the least. The amount of substances that are banned that aren't even tangentially related to go is extreme. I mean psychoactive drugs can be regulated sure, but why adopt a blanket standard put forth by another organization?
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Re: Anti-Doping in Practice from Player's Perspective

Post by kirkmc »

daal wrote:
BTW, a 9 page list is not "short."


Did you look at it? It's not 9 pages of drug names, but mostly explanatory paragraphs. Yes, I think it's short.
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Re: Anti-Doping in Practice from Player's Perspective

Post by kirkmc »

RobertJasiek wrote:
kirkmc wrote: The names on the list are words; the names on a box of meds are words.


Example:
Name in the list: XXXXX.
Name on the box: XXXXX-YYYYY.

In this case, I would conclude: XXXXX-YYYYY is a special type of XXXXX. But if it were ZZZZZ in the list, where XXXXX-YYYYY is a type of ZZZZZ, I would overlook it.


I'm not sure what you mean. Drugs aren't named like that. They have a name - say, paracetamol - they don't have compound names. I think you are a bit confused. Of course, if you have an example other than something you've invented with Xs, Ys and Zs, then it would be worth seeing. But I fear you are simply trying to come up with complications that don't exist.

print out a 9-page list and take it to their doctor. Frankly, such a suggestion doesn't need to be in a FAQ; it's common sense.


No, common sense is to trust one's doctor and accept whichever drug he prescribes.


Not if, for some reason, you are limited as to what you can take. I have a medical condition that means that I can't take drugs that have certain effects. I tell that to doctors, and they adjust, if necessary. This is obviously a different type of limit, but doctors are used to such things. And if you really need something on the list, you can get an exemption.
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Re: Anti-Doping in Practice from Player's Perspective

Post by John Fairbairn »

What exactly does that IGF do...? These doping regulations are strenuous to say the least. The amount of substances that are banned that aren't even tangentially related to go is extreme. I mean psychoactive drugs can be regulated sure, but why adopt a blanket standard put forth by another organization?


This is an old debate but you seem to be a new face, so I'll try to give a summary.

The main role of the fledgling IGF is to turn go into a truly international game, and it and its predecessor groupings have sought to implement that role by getting go accepted in the Olympics. That didn't work, but the Mindsports Games and the Asian Games have opened their doors. In order even to apply to these organisations you have to accept their control and their drugs regimes, and of course if you are accepted you have to implement them. People have realised that the regimes for mobile sports are not appropriate for go (though there is still debate whether go even is a sport) and so the gentlemen's agreement mentioned by Robert came into being. This is supposed to have begotten a more sensible, but still unofficial, list.

As far as I know, this particular drugs regime has already been applied to amateurs in the World Amateur Go Championship, and could, in theory, be applied during training to many amateurs in Europe and the USA who wish to take part in world events. But this out-of-competition stuff has not yet happened, and so far there is no likelihood of it.

Reaction in the west to the whole issue mostly seems to come under the following heads:

1. This is a great way to promote go in the west, especially as we are not making too good a job of it ourselves. We need this higher profile. Accepting a drugs regime is a small price to pay.

2. Alternatively, there are people who see this as a delusion. E.g. bobbing for toffee apples (name your own minority sport) has been in the Olympics for years yet hardly has a high profile even today. Others also consider the drugs regime too high a price to pay, anyway - at one extreme, it's seen as an affront to human rights.

3. Also common is the head-in-the-sand view (or wise view, depending on your standpoint) that argues that this doesn't really affect us, so why worry. A sub-set of this view is that it mostly only affects pros, so only they should decide what regime to accept.

4. Another concern for some is that the IGF is taking actions (even if benign) that affect us all, yet very, very few people know how the members are elected and even fewer know how to make them accountable or how to get their own views represented. Those most concerned may cite also negative experiences with similar organisations such as FIFA, the IOC and so on, but no-one yet has accused the IGF of corruption (the worst that can be said so far is that it has been a child of its sponsor, the Nihon Ki-in, but that relationship has been tempered a little recently - there seem to be moves to share the funding of the IGF; paying the piper and all that).

There are of course other strands. But very few people here have a coordinated or settled view of the topic, as it has not been discussed much publicly outside the forum. Robert, however, has examined the legislation closely. There are also people like Kirk who have useful knowledge from other sports (cycling in Kirk's case). I have some inside knowledge, as a journalist, of international organisations and disliked much of what I saw. Those who have intimate knowledge of how the subject is discussed within the IGF almost never seem to post here or anywhere else, although Robert, terrier like, has been able to elicit quite a lot of details through private e-mails. But I wouldn't say there has been any attempt at secrecy or a cover-up, nor is there even a hint of anything to cover up, and we must remember that the people working with or for the IGF are mostly already very busy amateurs.

However understandable the reasons, the present situation is murky. Robert is perhaps the only person to worry about it at present. To give a personal opinion, I have no worries at present but I do believe on general principles, from looking at other organisations, that what is happening now is likely to be the thin end of a large wedge. But it's unlikely ever to affect me or all but a handful of go players in the west, so that rather than a feeling of worry, I just have a feeling of cynicism (or I suffer from déformation professionnelle, if you prefer).

Incidentally, I'm not clear why Robert brought this up now. I'm not aware of anything happening in this area - perhaps he could explain.
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Re: Anti-Doping in Practice from Player's Perspective

Post by Javaness »

If you are worried about dope testing, then I would suggest that you contact your national Go executive for advice.

I'm not sure one can fairly call the IGF undemocratic, certainly not without broadening the brush stroke.
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Re: Anti-Doping in Practice from Player's Perspective

Post by tapir »

kirkmc wrote:As for millions, yes, there are millions of athletes who are affected by this. I've never heard any scandal about them not being able to print out a 9-page list and take it to their doctor. Frankly, such a suggestion doesn't need to be in a FAQ; it's common sense.

I'm getting the impression now that you're just trolling...


I'm getting the impression that you're unnecessarily rude here...

In my opinion Go is an infinite endeavour for the perfect game, running 100m or cycling 100km are altogether different. Humans as we know them will never run 100m in 5s so it is imho basically silly to try running even faster and very sensible to put a limit on self-harming performance enhancing activities like doping (because you already are at the limits of the human body). At the same time it is a bit insane to continue to strive for records and better bodily performance when you have to acknowledge that the human body has limits. If you are really serious about doping you should cancel the olympic games (tour de france etc.)

Pushing at intellectual limits in sth. like Go on the opposite does no harm to anybody and there are anyway no widely known performance enhancing substances, so nobody is harming himself while striving for the perfect play. What you have is medication to overcome certain conditions (caffeine for amateurs, oxygen for Nie Weiping e.g.) - but I see no reason at all to regulate these.
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Re: Anti-Doping in Practice from Player's Perspective

Post by Javaness »

I must admit to almost totally skipping Robert and Kirk's posts, because I have read
what they have written on the subjects before. In that spirit, let me too repeat what I have said earlier :)

Remember that the regulations are only applying to international events, this is not going to apply to 'your local village cricket team'. It might be that they are slightly irritating, but PWaldron's advice is sound. If you are going to the WAGC and are on medication, or buy something over a pharamcist's counter, keep some evidence of what you did.

Amphetamines would be suitable for memorising joseki before an event. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amphetamin ... ancing_use
and one can begin to look elsewhere too http://www.nature.com/nature/journal/v4 ... 6702a.html
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Re: Anti-Doping in Practice from Player's Perspective

Post by kirkmc »

tapir wrote:Pushing at intellectual limits in sth. like Go on the opposite does no harm to anybody and there are anyway no widely known performance enhancing substances, so nobody is harming himself while striving for the perfect play. What you have is medication to overcome certain conditions (caffeine for amateurs, oxygen for Nie Weiping e.g.) - but I see no reason at all to regulate these.


I think it's fair to say that there are, indeed, substances that can help go players. Given the length of some matches, amphetamines (and perhaps beta blockers) could certainly give an advantage to some players. Having a clear mind, and not being tired, could be the equivalent of a stone or more to the person who has that advantage.

As to whether they _should_ be regulated, that's a decision made by the IGF, apparently with agreement from enough national go federations to make it stick. If they're really trying to get go in the olympics (a pipe dream in my opinion), and that's what is needed to get to the next level of discussion, then it seems like a small price to pay.
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