89. Koroviev (12k) vs Mnemonic (11k)

Mnemonic · Post by **Mnemonic** » Fri Dec 24, 2010 9:07 am

Thanks for the comments, ...

Koroviev · Post by **Koroviev** » Fri Dec 24, 2010 4:45 pm

Thanks for the comments, Ed Lee, I look forward to reading them, with not a little trepidation.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bcm11 Prisoners: B: 0, W:0 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . O . . . . . . X . O . 1 O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Wasn't expecting this jump into the corner, as I said. I suspect (probably wrongly) that this invasion might be less favourable for white with my Q6 stone in place - though I don't think W will have any problems living in the corner. I didn't think much about which side to block, as it seems obvious - but perhaps I'll learn otherwise.

Anyway, I'm predicting something like the following from this invasion, and I'm happy with that - I am trying to play mostly for influence, hence opening with 4-4 stones.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bcm11 Prisoners: B: 0, W:0 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 3 . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X 2 . . | $$ | . . . . O . . . . . . X . O 7 1 O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 5 4 6 . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Merry Christmas Mnemonic, and all observers.

Koroviev · Post by **Koroviev** » Fri Dec 24, 2010 6:17 pm

Further thoughts:

On second thoughts, perhaps something like this is better for white:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bcm11 Prisoners: B: 0, W:0 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . O . . . . . . X . O . 1 O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 2 . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Not certain of best response here. Perhaps something like:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bcm11 Prisoners: B: 0, W:0 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X 3 . . | $$ | . . . . O . . . . . . X . O . 1 O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 2 4 . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Will have to think some more if white plays like this. Either way, I think black should come out with a fairly solid wall as compensation for ceding the corner.

Laman · Post by **Laman** » Fri Dec 24, 2010 6:19 pm

EdLee:
perhaps you shouldn't write exactly which move you comment. just it itself gives pretty much information or base for unreasonable speculations for players. but it is up to you, no offense

EdLee · Post by **EdLee** » Fri Dec 24, 2010 8:23 pm

Hi Laman, no offense taken and thanks for the input. If either player would rather see no move numbers mentioned, I will refrain. It is only for ease of search for the spectators (during and after the game) and the players (only afterwards). Obviously, we all want to give zero information about the game to the players, and that's why certain comments are hidden. We all know any comment (with or without a move number) can be pretty much about anything at all: good, bad, or neutral, or about other (pro) variations; it may not even be about that move itself, but rather about something in the past or the future; or, it may have nothing to do with the game at all.

EdLee · Post by **EdLee** » Fri Dec 24, 2010 8:46 pm

Mnemonic · Post by **Mnemonic** » Sat Dec 25, 2010 9:35 am

@Observers (and Koroviev: let me know if you disagree)

I don't think that including move numbers in comments is giving away too much information. All they say is that the Observer thinks a particular move is interesting (whether good, bad, strange, ect. I have no clue), and if a move is worth commenting on, the player are probably already thinking about it. Plus, if a move is followed by a flurry of comments (without move numbers) the players usually know something’s up.
(Additionally: how are we to know that the hidden comments are actually talking about the move and are not just a red herring)
IMO labeling a comment is helpful, if it is done with some precaution (i. e. not during a game deciding life and death problem)

Edit: move coming so to a board near you

Mnemonic · Post by **Mnemonic** » Sat Dec 25, 2010 9:57 am

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bcm11 Prisoners: B: 0, W:0 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . O . . . . . . X . O . X O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 2 . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Koroviev · Post by **Koroviev** » Sat Dec 25, 2010 4:39 pm

Merry Christmas, all.

The two response I've been considering, with the initial responses I'm tentatively predicting:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bcm11 Prisoners: B: 0, W:0 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . O . . . . . . X . O 5 X O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 3 2 4 . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Or...

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bcm11 Prisoners: B: 0, W:0 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X 3 . . | $$ | . . . . O . . . . . . X . O . X O 5 . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 2 6 4 . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

I can't really decide which of these outcomes is better for black. The second lets me keep sente, but perhaps leaves more aji. The first seems more secure, but is probably gote. Nothing ventured etc...I will go for the latter approach.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bcm11 Prisoners: B: 0, W:0 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X 3 . . | $$ | . . . . O . . . . . . X . O . X O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Regarding comments with move numbers, I'm neutral - I'm happy to get any comments from stronger players. A visible move number does make me wonder in vain about the move a little, but that's no bad thing.

Mnemonic · Post by **Mnemonic** » Sun Dec 26, 2010 5:25 am

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bcm11 Prisoners: B: 0, W:0 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X X . . | $$ | . . . . O . . . . . . X . O . X O 4 . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Edit:

EdLee · Post by **EdLee** » Sun Dec 26, 2010 9:06 am

White Move 14.

Koroviev · Post by **Koroviev** » Tue Jan 04, 2011 5:10 am

Hi Mnemonic, sorry for the delay - I've now finally recovered from new year festivities and am back in action. :mrgreen:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bcm11 Prisoners: B: 0, W:0 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X X . . | $$ | . . . . O . . . 5 . . X . O . X O O . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Not an easy move for me - this is the kind of position where I suspect any move I choose is wrong. I try to keep my thinking simple. The first thing I consider is - is my bottom right corner in danger, or can I tenuki?

It's an unfamiliar position for me, so I can't be sure. It certainly doesn't look completely settled, but then it doesn't look in any immediate danger, and I can't find a move that is definitely sente. Several moves look tempting: P2, S4, O4, but I'm uncertain how big they are and I don't think they require a reply. The one move white move that looks problematic is:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bcm11 Prisoners: B: 0, W:0 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X 9 . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 8 7 . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X X 6 . | $$ | . . . . O . . . . . . X . O . X O O . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Maybe some trouble there, but nothing too devastating as far as I can see, so I think I will leave this corner for now.

That being so, is any other group in immediate danger? The top left needs attention, since a pincer against my white stone looks severe. I considered this move for a while:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bcm11 Prisoners: B: 0, W:0 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . 5 , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X X . . | $$ | . . . . O . . . . . . X . O . X O O . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

...but then decided that the two-space extension along the bottom is just two big to ignore. If my opponent plays it instead I will have to run into the centre. Also, because of the position of his stone in the bottom left, he doesn't have an obvious extension along the side after my move. And finally, if he jumps out with his lone white stone, I will be happy to extend along the right hand side as below:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bcm11 Prisoners: B: 0, W:0 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 7 . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . 6 . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X X . . | $$ | . . . . O . . . 5 . . X . O . X O O . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Choosing this move leaves my opponent able to pincer in the top left, but I'm not too worried about that. There is some aji left around P2 that seems more of a problem for white than black. Overall I'm happy with the position after this move.

So there's my thinking, such as it is. Let's see what happens.

Mnemonic · Post by **Mnemonic** » Tue Jan 04, 2011 3:12 pm

I will not call blacks move a mistake since last time I did that I ended up in a horrible position :sad:

But it is a tad slow (Is this calling it a mistake? I don't want to jinx it) since I never even hopped of attacking the M3 stone.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wcm1 Looks bad for white $$ . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ . . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ . . , . . 2 . . X X . . | $$ . . 1 . X . O . X O O . | $$ . . . . . . . . O . . . | $$ . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ -------------------[/go]

But what to do now? I think tenuki is the most sensible option. When he starts playing in the lower right corner again, I can just come back to the variations I already read out. If I on the other hand play a gote move and he tenukis to the upper left ... My only hope of coming back from my mistakes earlier is to damage his upper left in a similar way that he damaged the lower right.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wcm1 $$ ------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . . . 1 X . . 3 . $$ | . . . O . 2 . . . , $$ | . . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . O . . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . . .[/go]

Coming back to my local options: I think :w1:

is the most likely to get a response.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wcm1 Black can't be happy with this. $$ . . . . . . . . . | $$ . . . . . X . . . | $$ . . . . . . 3 . . | $$ . . . . . X X 1 . | $$ . X . O . X O O . | $$ . . . . . O . . . | $$ . . . . . . . . . | $$ -------------------[/go]

Whereas just connecting out seems too passive. Plus black can play :b2:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wcm1 W can't get out. $$ . . . . . . . . . | $$ . . . . . X . . . | $$ . . . 6 8 . . . . | $$ . . 3 2 5 X X . . | $$ . X 4 O 7 X O O . | $$ . . . . 1 O . . . | $$ . . . . . . . . . | $$ -------------------[/go]

Mnemonic · Post by **Mnemonic** » Tue Jan 04, 2011 3:21 pm

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bcm11 Prisoners: B: 0, W:0 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . 6 X . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X X . . | $$ | . . . . O . . . X . . X . O . X O O . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Koroviev · Post by **Koroviev** » Wed Jan 05, 2011 3:53 am

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bcm11 Prisoners: B: 0, W:0 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . 7 . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X X . . | $$ | . . . . O . . . X . . X . O . X O O . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

I had a good ponder about this and I think I've made a decent response - I'd be interested to find out later what any stronger players think.

I said at the start of this game I would avoid fanciful variation diagrams, but I've gone and done quite a few here to explain my thinking.

From playing against weaker players I'm used to meeting this play as a direct response to an approach, as below:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bcm11 Prisoners: B: 0, W:0 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . 6 X . . . 9 . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . 7 . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . 8 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X X . . | $$ | . . . . O . . . X . . X . O . X O O . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

In that case it seems to work out pretty well for black - in fact, I've never seen a non-beginner play it, I think. In this situation, however, with the C14 stone already there, it seems like a good play. If I play F16, I can't expect white to allow me to make the comfortable three-space extension, and I will find my two stones pincered. But I don't want to extend straight away, as that would be (kind of) ignoring a contact play. So my plan is to play F16, and if (as I expect) white plays somewhere around 18, below, I will counter pincer at 19.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bcm11 Prisoners: B: 0, W:0 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . O X . . . 8 . . 9 . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . 7 . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X X . . | $$ | . . . . O . . . X . . X . O . X O O . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

If white jumps out, I will do the same:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wcm20 Prisoners: B: 0, W:0 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . O X . . . O . . X . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . X . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . 1 . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . 2 . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X X . . | $$ | . . . . O . . . X . . X . O . X O O . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wcm20 Prisoners: B: 0, W:0 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . O X . . . O . . X . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . X . . 2 , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X X . . | $$ | . . . . O . . . X . . X . O . X O O . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

If he tries to cap my two stones, I can attack his lone stone on the side, and it seems a pretty fair running fight will follow.

If he responds to 17 with tenuki or something quite unexpected, I can consider playing the three-space extension after all:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bcm11 Prisoners: B: 0, W:0 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . O X . . . 9 . . . 8 . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . 7 . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X X . . | $$ | . . . . O . . . X . . X . O . X O O . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

As mentioned earlier, I could just ignore the contact play and extend along the side straight away. I would be treating my F17 stone more lightly in this case (which I suppose is good :scratch:

) but this doesn't look that great to me, somehow:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bcm11 Prisoners: B: 0, W:0 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . O X . . . 7 . . 9 . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . 8 . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X X . . | $$ | . . . . O . . . X . . X . O . X O O . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

So there's my thinking. I might just play my next move purely on intuition - requires less typing.

Life In 19x19

89. Koroviev (12k) vs Mnemonic (11k)

Re: 89. Koroviev (12k) vs Mnemonic (11k)

Re: 89. Koroviev (12k) vs Mnemonic (11k)

Re: 89. Koroviev (12k) vs Mnemonic (11k)

Re: 89. Koroviev (12k) vs Mnemonic (11k)

Re: 89. Koroviev (12k) vs Mnemonic (11k)

Re: 89. Koroviev (12k) vs Mnemonic (11k)

Re: 89. Koroviev (12k) vs Mnemonic (11k)

Re: 89. Koroviev (12k) vs Mnemonic (11k)

White Move 14

Re: 89. Koroviev (12k) vs Mnemonic (11k)

Re: 89. Koroviev (12k) vs Mnemonic (11k)

Re: 89. Koroviev (12k) vs Mnemonic (11k)

Re: 89. Koroviev (12k) vs Mnemonic (11k)