Simple Sure Win Strategy for White Human Player vs GnuGo 3.8

[RobertJasiek]

No? Imagine the world without warm houses, warm meals and ground transport vehicles! :)

[GloFish]

I'm very amused about the philosophical discussion that arised from my simple finding. Actually I was just fooling around with GnuGo in a moment of boredom, asking it one of those "hmm, what happens if...?" questions, without any intention of finding a sure win strategy or anything else which is worth to mention, when I made that discovery. Of course, as a dan player I can beat GnuGo anyway in an even game, but I have to think a little about my moves - I actually managed to lose sometimes, when I just fooled around without thinking. That's why I was amazed about my discovery - it allows to win even without thinking, by just playing very simple mechanical moves. So I thought I could share my discovery with the community, be it for personal amusement or improvement of GnuGo.

[GloFish]

And hereby I answer the request of tj86430 for some example games. I just played 3 games right now for this post, the outcome is quite typical. I don't claim that I played a particularly strong end-game, I just made very basic moves without much thinking, to illustrate how easily it works. (copy-paste quotes to .sgf files and view them with any Go program)

(;FF[1]GM[1]SZ[19]AP[Jago:Version 4.53]GN[GloFish vs GnuGo 1];B[pd];W[oe];B[pe];W[of];B[nc];W[md];B[dp];W[eo];B[cn];W[dm];B[qg];W[ph];B[fq];W[gp];B[dd];W[ee];B[fc];W[gd];B[cf];W[dg];B[pp];W[oo];B[nq];W[mp];B[qn];W[pm];B[gc];W[hd];B[mq];W[lp];B[bl];W[ck];B[ib];W[jc];B[kr];W[jq];B[bh];W[ci];B[rl];W[qk];B[gq];W[hp];B[ri];W[qh];B[rh];W[op];B[oq];W[po];B[qo];W[ep];B[eq];W[do];B[co];W[ed];B[ec];W[de];B[ce];W[od];B[oc];W[pf];B[qf];W[cm];B[bm];W[cg];B[bg];W[lq];B[lr];W[qm];B[rm];W[hc];B[lc];W[ld];B[jb];W[kc];B[hb];W[mc];B[pg];W[og];B[cp];W[qj];B[cd];W[hq];B[qp];W[gr];B[fr];W[hr];B[lb];W[mb];B[ob];W[kb];B[jr];W[kq];B[ch];W[dh];B[df];W[ef];B[dn];W[en];B[cl];W[dl];B[cj];W[dj];B[bj];W[fp];B[gs];W[hs];B[fs];W[pn];B[bk];W[dk];B[bi];W[di];B[nb];W[ic];B[fd];W[fe];B[qi];W[pi];B[nd];W[ne];B[np];W[no];B[ql];W[pl];B[ma];W[la];B[ja];W[na];B[pc];W[oa];B[pa];W[ma];B[ir];W[iq];B[rk];W[rj];B[sk];W[si];B[rg];W[sj];B[sh];W[oj];B[is];W[ka];C[Passen]TB[aa][ab][ac][ad][ae][af][ag][ah][ai][aj][ak][al][am][an][ao][ap][aq][ar][as][ba][bb][bc][bd][be][bf][bn][bo][bp][bq][br][bs][ca][cb][cc][cq][cr][cs][da][db][dc][dq][dr][ds][ea][eb][er][es][fa][fb][ga][gb][ha][ia][js][ks][ls][mr][ms][nr][ns][or][os][pb][pq][pr][ps][qa][qb][qc][qd][qe][qq][qr][qs][ra][rb][rc][rd][re][rf][rn][ro][rp][rq][rr][rs][sa][sb][sc][sd][se][sf][sg][sl][sm][sn][so][sp][sq][sr][ss]TW[eg][eh][ei][ej][ek][el][em][ff][fg][fh][fi][fj][fk][fl][fm][fn][fo][ge][gf][gg][gh][gi][gj][gk][gl][gm][gn][go][he][hf][hg][hh][hi][hj][hk][hl][hm][hn][ho][id][ie][if][ig][ih][ii][ij][ik][il][im][in][io][ip][jd][je][jf][jg][jh][ji][jj][jk][jl][jm][jn][jo][jp][kd][ke][kf][kg][kh][ki][kj][kk][kl][km][kn][ko][kp][lb][lc][le][lf][lg][lh][li][lj][lk][ll][lm][ln][lo][me][mf][mg][mh][mi][mj][mk][ml][mm][mn][mo][nf][ng][nh][ni][nj][nk][nl][nm][nn][oh][oi][ok][ol][om][on][pj][pk])

(;FF[1]GM[1]SZ[19]AP[Jago:Version 4.53]GN[GloFish vs GnuGo 2];B[pd];W[oe];B[pe];W[of];B[pf];W[og];B[pg];W[ph];B[od];W[nd];B[oq];W[np];B[nq];W[mp];B[po];W[on];B[ec];W[fd];B[fc];W[gd];B[hb];W[ic];B[de];W[ef];B[nc];W[md];B[qm];W[pl];B[dp];W[eo];B[fq];W[gp];B[cn];W[dm];B[cg];W[dh];B[lr];W[kq];B[ch];W[di];B[bj];W[ck];B[lb];W[kc];B[hr];W[iq];B[qh];W[pi];B[fp];W[fo];B[dn];W[em];B[ql];W[pk];B[rj];W[qi];B[ri];W[qk];B[rk];W[pn];B[qn];W[op];B[pp];W[ep];B[eq];W[do];B[co];W[cm];B[fn];W[en];B[fm];W[fl];B[hn];W[hl];B[im];W[jn];B[jl];W[kk];B[cp];W[ci];B[bi];W[df];B[cf];W[ed];B[dd];W[mc];B[mb];W[mq];B[hp];W[hq];B[gq];W[go];B[mr];W[ir];B[bm];W[bl];B[gs];W[bn];B[bo];W[am];B[ao];W[gc];B[gb];W[kr];B[an];W[bm];B[oo];W[no];B[lq];W[lp];B[pq];W[pm];B[ee];W[fe];B[hc];W[hd];B[ib];W[jc];B[cj];W[dj];B[dg];W[eg];B[qj];W[pj];B[lc];W[ld];B[bk];W[ak];B[kb];W[jb];B[ja];W[je];B[ls];W[ks];B[ns];W[is];B[hs];W[aj];B[ai];W[al];B[bh];C[Passen];B[dk];W[cl];B[ff];W[fh];C[Passen];;C[PassenPassen]AE[fm][fn][hn][im][jl][hp][dk][ff]TB[aa][ab][ac][ad][ae][af][ag][ah][ap][aq][ar][as][ba][bb][bc][bd][be][bf][bg][bp][bq][br][bs][ca][cb][cc][cd][ce][cq][cr][cs][da][db][dc][dq][dr][ds][ea][eb][er][es][fa][fb][fr][fs][ga][gr][ha][ia][ka][la][ma][ms][na][nb][nr][oa][ob][oc][or][os][pa][pb][pc][pr][ps][qa][qb][qc][qd][qe][qf][qg][qo][qp][qq][qr][qs][ra][rb][rc][rd][re][rf][rg][rh][rl][rm][rn][ro][rp][rq][rr][rs][sa][sb][sc][sd][se][sf][sg][sh][si][sj][sk][sl][sm][sn][so][sp][sq][sr][ss]TW[dk][dl][eh][ei][ej][ek][el][ff][fg][fi][fj][fk][fm][fn][ge][gf][gg][gh][gi][gj][gk][gl][gm][gn][he][hf][hg][hh][hi][hj][hk][hm][hn][ho][hp][id][ie][if][ig][ih][ii][ij][ik][il][im][in][io][ip][jd][jf][jg][jh][ji][jj][jk][jl][jm][jo][jp][jq][jr][js][kd][ke][kf][kg][kh][ki][kj][kl][km][kn][ko][kp][le][lf][lg][lh][li][lj][lk][ll][lm][ln][lo][me][mf][mg][mh][mi][mj][mk][ml][mm][mn][mo][ne][nf][ng][nh][ni][nj][nk][nl][nm][nn][oh][oi][oj][ok][ol][om])

(;FF[1]GM[1]SZ[19]AP[Jago:Version 4.53]GN[GloFish vs GnuGo 3];B[pd];W[oe];B[pe];W[of];B[nc];W[md];B[cd];W[de];B[ec];W[fd];B[pp];W[oo];B[qn];W[pm];B[qg];W[ph];B[nq];W[mp];B[cq];W[dp];B[dq];W[ep];B[bo];W[cn];B[fr];W[gq];B[ce];W[df];B[bg];W[ch];B[lr];W[kq];B[fc];W[gd];B[hb];W[ic];B[bn];W[cm];B[ak];W[bj];B[lb];W[kc];B[rl];W[qk];B[pg];W[og];B[gr];W[hq];B[qh];W[pi];B[lq];W[lp];B[bm];W[cl];B[kr];W[jq];B[rk];W[qj];B[rj];W[qm];B[pn];W[on];B[rm];W[po];B[qo];W[op];B[oq];W[mq];B[mr];W[pf];B[qf];W[od];B[oc];W[mc];B[mb];W[gc];B[gb];W[dd];B[dc];W[cf];B[bf];W[cp];B[bp];W[eq];B[er];W[qi];B[pq];W[np];B[ri];W[bl];B[aj];W[bi];B[al];W[nd];B[cg];W[dg];B[hc];W[hd];B[lc];W[ld];B[jc];W[jd];B[jb];W[ib];B[kb];W[kd];B[ia];W[id];B[bk];W[ck];B[ql];W[pl];B[ed];W[ee];B[fq];W[fp];B[jr];W[ir];B[co];W[do];B[hr];W[is];B[hs];W[bh];B[js];W[iq];B[ag];W[ah];B[be];W[ai];B[am];W[dj];C[Passen];C[Passen];C[Passen]TB[aa][ab][ac][ad][ae][af][an][ao][ap][aq][ar][as][ba][bb][bc][bd][bq][br][bs][ca][cb][cc][cr][cs][da][db][dr][ds][ea][eb][es][fa][fb][fs][ga][gs][ha][ja][ka][ks][la][ls][ma][ms][na][nb][nr][ns][oa][ob][or][os][pa][pb][pc][pr][ps][qa][qb][qc][qd][qe][qp][qq][qr][qs][ra][rb][rc][rd][re][rf][rg][rh][rn][ro][rp][rq][rr][rs][sa][sb][sc][sd][se][sf][sg][sh][si][sj][sk][sl][sm][sn][so][sp][sq][sr][ss]TW[ci][cj][dh][di][dk][dl][dm][dn][ef][eg][eh][ei][ej][ek][el][em][en][eo][fe][ff][fg][fh][fi][fj][fk][fl][fm][fn][fo][ge][gf][gg][gh][gi][gj][gk][gl][gm][gn][go][gp][he][hf][hg][hh][hi][hj][hk][hl][hm][hn][ho][hp][ie][if][ig][ih][ii][ij][ik][il][im][in][io][ip][je][jf][jg][jh][ji][jj][jk][jl][jm][jn][jo][jp][ke][kf][kg][kh][ki][kj][kk][kl][km][kn][ko][kp][le][lf][lg][lh][li][lj][lk][ll][lm][ln][lo][me][mf][mg][mh][mi][mj][mk][ml][mm][mn][mo][ne][nf][ng][nh][ni][nj][nk][nl][nm][nn][no][oh][oi][oj][ok][ol][om][pj][pk])

[tj86430]

This is slightly more usable:

[sgf-full](;FF[1]GM[1]SZ[19]AP[Jago:Version 4.53]GN[GloFish vs GnuGo 1];B[pd];W[oe];B[pe];W[of];B[nc];W[md];B[dp];W[eo];B[cn];W[dm];B[qg];W[ph];B[fq];W[gp];B[dd];W[ee];B[fc];W[gd];B[cf];W[dg];B[pp];W[oo];B[nq];W[mp];B[qn];W[pm];B[gc];W[hd];B[mq];W[lp];B[bl];W[ck];B[ib];W[jc];B[kr];W[jq];B[bh];W[ci];B[rl];W[qk];B[gq];W[hp];B[ri];W[qh];B[rh];W[op];B[oq];W[po];B[qo];W[ep];B[eq];W[do];B[co];W[ed];B[ec];W[de];B[ce];W[od];B[oc];W[pf];B[qf];W[cm];B[bm];W[cg];B[bg];W[lq];B[lr];W[qm];B[rm];W[hc];B[lc];W[ld];B[jb];W[kc];B[hb];W[mc];B[pg];W[og];B[cp];W[qj];B[cd];W[hq];B[qp];W[gr];B[fr];W[hr];B[lb];W[mb];B[ob];W[kb];B[jr];W[kq];B[ch];W[dh];B[df];W[ef];B[dn];W[en];B[cl];W[dl];B[cj];W[dj];B[bj];W[fp];B[gs];W[hs];B[fs];W[pn];B[bk];W[dk];B[bi];W[di];B[nb];W[ic];B[fd];W[fe];B[qi];W[pi];B[nd];W[ne];B[np];W[no];B[ql];W[pl];B[ma];W[la];B[ja];W[na];B[pc];W[oa];B[pa];W[ma];B[ir];W[iq];B[rk];W[rj];B[sk];W[si];B[rg];W[sj];B[sh];W[oj];B[is];W[ka];C[Passen]TB[aa][ab][ac][ad][ae][af][ag][ah][ai][aj][ak][al][am][an][ao][ap][aq][ar][as][ba][bb][bc][bd][be][bf][bn][bo][bp][bq][br][bs][ca][cb][cc][cq][cr][cs][da][db][dc][dq][dr][ds][ea][eb][er][es][fa][fb][ga][gb][ha][ia][js][ks][ls][mr][ms][nr][ns][or][os][pb][pq][pr][ps][qa][qb][qc][qd][qe][qq][qr][qs][ra][rb][rc][rd][re][rf][rn][ro][rp][rq][rr][rs][sa][sb][sc][sd][se][sf][sg][sl][sm][sn][so][sp][sq][sr][ss]TW[eg][eh][ei][ej][ek][el][em][ff][fg][fh][fi][fj][fk][fl][fm][fn][fo][ge][gf][gg][gh][gi][gj][gk][gl][gm][gn][go][he][hf][hg][hh][hi][hj][hk][hl][hm][hn][ho][id][ie][if][ig][ih][ii][ij][ik][il][im][in][io][ip][jd][je][jf][jg][jh][ji][jj][jk][jl][jm][jn][jo][jp][kd][ke][kf][kg][kh][ki][kj][kk][kl][km][kn][ko][kp][lb][lc][le][lf][lg][lh][li][lj][lk][ll][lm][ln][lo][me][mf][mg][mh][mi][mj][mk][ml][mm][mn][mo][nf][ng][nh][ni][nj][nk][nl][nm][nn][oh][oi][ok][ol][om][on][pj][pk])[/sgf-full]

[sgf-full](;FF[1]GM[1]SZ[19]AP[Jago:Version 4.53]GN[GloFish vs GnuGo 2];B[pd];W[oe];B[pe];W[of];B[pf];W[og];B[pg];W[ph];B[od];W[nd];B[oq];W[np];B[nq];W[mp];B[po];W[on];B[ec];W[fd];B[fc];W[gd];B[hb];W[ic];B[de];W[ef];B[nc];W[md];B[qm];W[pl];B[dp];W[eo];B[fq];W[gp];B[cn];W[dm];B[cg];W[dh];B[lr];W[kq];B[ch];W[di];B[bj];W[ck];B[lb];W[kc];B[hr];W[iq];B[qh];W[pi];B[fp];W[fo];B[dn];W[em];B[ql];W[pk];B[rj];W[qi];B[ri];W[qk];B[rk];W[pn];B[qn];W[op];B[pp];W[ep];B[eq];W[do];B[co];W[cm];B[fn];W[en];B[fm];W[fl];B[hn];W[hl];B[im];W[jn];B[jl];W[kk];B[cp];W[ci];B[bi];W[df];B[cf];W[ed];B[dd];W[mc];B[mb];W[mq];B[hp];W[hq];B[gq];W[go];B[mr];W[ir];B[bm];W[bl];B[gs];W[bn];B[bo];W[am];B[ao];W[gc];B[gb];W[kr];B[an];W[bm];B[oo];W[no];B[lq];W[lp];B[pq];W[pm];B[ee];W[fe];B[hc];W[hd];B[ib];W[jc];B[cj];W[dj];B[dg];W[eg];B[qj];W[pj];B[lc];W[ld];B[bk];W[ak];B[kb];W[jb];B[ja];W[je];B[ls];W[ks];B[ns];W[is];B[hs];W[aj];B[ai];W[al];B[bh];C[Passen];B[dk];W[cl];B[ff];W[fh];C[Passen];;C[PassenPassen]AE[fm][fn][hn][im][jl][hp][dk][ff]TB[aa][ab][ac][ad][ae][af][ag][ah][ap][aq][ar][as][ba][bb][bc][bd][be][bf][bg][bp][bq][br][bs][ca][cb][cc][cd][ce][cq][cr][cs][da][db][dc][dq][dr][ds][ea][eb][er][es][fa][fb][fr][fs][ga][gr][ha][ia][ka][la][ma][ms][na][nb][nr][oa][ob][oc][or][os][pa][pb][pc][pr][ps][qa][qb][qc][qd][qe][qf][qg][qo][qp][qq][qr][qs][ra][rb][rc][rd][re][rf][rg][rh][rl][rm][rn][ro][rp][rq][rr][rs][sa][sb][sc][sd][se][sf][sg][sh][si][sj][sk][sl][sm][sn][so][sp][sq][sr][ss]TW[dk][dl][eh][ei][ej][ek][el][ff][fg][fi][fj][fk][fm][fn][ge][gf][gg][gh][gi][gj][gk][gl][gm][gn][he][hf][hg][hh][hi][hj][hk][hm][hn][ho][hp][id][ie][if][ig][ih][ii][ij][ik][il][im][in][io][ip][jd][jf][jg][jh][ji][jj][jk][jl][jm][jo][jp][jq][jr][js][kd][ke][kf][kg][kh][ki][kj][kl][km][kn][ko][kp][le][lf][lg][lh][li][lj][lk][ll][lm][ln][lo][me][mf][mg][mh][mi][mj][mk][ml][mm][mn][mo][ne][nf][ng][nh][ni][nj][nk][nl][nm][nn][oh][oi][oj][ok][ol][om])[/sgf-full]

[sgf-full](;FF[1]GM[1]SZ[19]AP[Jago:Version 4.53]GN[GloFish vs GnuGo 3];B[pd];W[oe];B[pe];W[of];B[nc];W[md];B[cd];W[de];B[ec];W[fd];B[pp];W[oo];B[qn];W[pm];B[qg];W[ph];B[nq];W[mp];B[cq];W[dp];B[dq];W[ep];B[bo];W[cn];B[fr];W[gq];B[ce];W[df];B[bg];W[ch];B[lr];W[kq];B[fc];W[gd];B[hb];W[ic];B[bn];W[cm];B[ak];W[bj];B[lb];W[kc];B[rl];W[qk];B[pg];W[og];B[gr];W[hq];B[qh];W[pi];B[lq];W[lp];B[bm];W[cl];B[kr];W[jq];B[rk];W[qj];B[rj];W[qm];B[pn];W[on];B[rm];W[po];B[qo];W[op];B[oq];W[mq];B[mr];W[pf];B[qf];W[od];B[oc];W[mc];B[mb];W[gc];B[gb];W[dd];B[dc];W[cf];B[bf];W[cp];B[bp];W[eq];B[er];W[qi];B[pq];W[np];B[ri];W[bl];B[aj];W[bi];B[al];W[nd];B[cg];W[dg];B[hc];W[hd];B[lc];W[ld];B[jc];W[jd];B[jb];W[ib];B[kb];W[kd];B[ia];W[id];B[bk];W[ck];B[ql];W[pl];B[ed];W[ee];B[fq];W[fp];B[jr];W[ir];B[co];W[do];B[hr];W[is];B[hs];W[bh];B[js];W[iq];B[ag];W[ah];B[be];W[ai];B[am];W[dj];C[Passen];C[Passen];C[Passen]TB[aa][ab][ac][ad][ae][af][an][ao][ap][aq][ar][as][ba][bb][bc][bd][bq][br][bs][ca][cb][cc][cr][cs][da][db][dr][ds][ea][eb][es][fa][fb][fs][ga][gs][ha][ja][ka][ks][la][ls][ma][ms][na][nb][nr][ns][oa][ob][or][os][pa][pb][pc][pr][ps][qa][qb][qc][qd][qe][qp][qq][qr][qs][ra][rb][rc][rd][re][rf][rg][rh][rn][ro][rp][rq][rr][rs][sa][sb][sc][sd][se][sf][sg][sh][si][sj][sk][sl][sm][sn][so][sp][sq][sr][ss]TW[ci][cj][dh][di][dk][dl][dm][dn][ef][eg][eh][ei][ej][ek][el][em][en][eo][fe][ff][fg][fh][fi][fj][fk][fl][fm][fn][fo][ge][gf][gg][gh][gi][gj][gk][gl][gm][gn][go][gp][he][hf][hg][hh][hi][hj][hk][hl][hm][hn][ho][hp][ie][if][ig][ih][ii][ij][ik][il][im][in][io][ip][je][jf][jg][jh][ji][jj][jk][jl][jm][jn][jo][jp][ke][kf][kg][kh][ki][kj][kk][kl][km][kn][ko][kp][le][lf][lg][lh][li][lj][lk][ll][lm][ln][lo][me][mf][mg][mh][mi][mj][mk][ml][mm][mn][mo][ne][nf][ng][nh][ni][nj][nk][nl][nm][nn][no][oh][oi][oj][ok][ol][om][pj][pk])[/sgf-full]

[GloFish]

And special greetings to Robert, funny to meet you here. Thank you for your appreciation, I feel flattered. I'm not in a state of pride though, I'm just amused. And I sure had a great laugh when reading the responses to my post today
(my real name is Thomas Frech)

[GloFish]

Wow, awesome work tj86430, thank you very much! I'm new to this forum, I didn't know we can include a web based Go client here

[RobertJasiek]

Thomas Frech

Ah! What about trying it with Black? First move pass, then apply the same strategy.

[topazg]

In case you were wondering Thomas, my post wasn't actually directed at you. I figure at 1d this is likely an exercise in amusement as opposed to a serious HaXX0r win strategy for those hardcore bot-players out there

However, I've been looking at sensei's articles recently on "ripoffs that GnuGo answers wrong", and I really think people get carried away with the result a bit too much. This to me is a fabulous bit of research for GnuGo engine writers to fix, and it's a good laugh. My concern is that weaker players will read it, and brag about how they can beat an SDK every time, and wonder why their strategy doesn't work against real players.

This sort of thing makes me want to return to my idea of writing heuristic Go playing engines :S

[GloFish]

Ah! What about trying it with Black? First move pass, then apply the same strategy.

My client hangs when I pass on my first turn with black, so I played Ten Gen instead. Here's the outcome:

[sgf-full](;FF[1]GM[1]SZ[19]AP[Jago:Version 4.53]GN[GloFish vs GnuGo 4];B[jj];W[dp];B[eo];W[do];B[en];W[cm];B[dl];W[fq];B[gp];W[dd];B[ee];W[cf];B[dg];W[fc];B[gd];W[pd];B[oe];W[nc];B[md];W[qf];B[pg];W[pp];B[oo];W[nq];B[mp];W[qn];B[pm];W[gq];B[hp];W[ir];B[jq];W[rl];B[qk];W[mc];B[ld];W[kb];B[jc];W[rh];B[qi];W[bh];B[ci];W[pn];B[on];W[cl];B[dk];W[gc];B[hd];W[np];B[mo];W[lr];B[mq];W[jr];B[kq];W[bi];B[cj];W[jb];B[ic];W[ib];B[lc];W[no];B[nn];W[mr];B[op];W[oq];B[po];W[qo];B[qm];W[rp];B[od];W[oc];B[pe];W[qe];B[ed];W[ec];B[de];W[ce];B[cg];W[bg];B[dn];W[cn];B[ep];W[eq];B[hq];W[rm];B[hr];W[pq];B[lq];W[hs];B[gr];W[dr];B[qg];W[rg];B[ql];W[kr];B[hc];W[lb];B[hb];W[dc];B[df];W[qd];B[pf];W[bj];B[ck];W[bk];B[fp];W[ha];B[gb];W[fb];B[ga];W[ri];B[qh];W[rk];B[rj];W[sj];B[qj];W[gs];B[fr];W[er];B[fs];W[is];B[es];W[ds];B[dm];W[ia];B[fa];W[ea];B[kc];W[fd];B[fe];W[db];B[ch];W[nd];B[ne];W[iq];B[ip];C[Passen];C[Passen];C[Passen]TW[aa][ab][ac][ad][ae][af][ag][ah][ai][aj][ak][al][am][an][ao][ap][aq][ar][as][ba][bb][bc][bd][be][bf][bl][bm][bn][bo][bp][bq][br][bs][ca][cb][cc][cd][co][cp][cq][cr][cs][da][dq][eb][ja][js][ka][ks][la][ls][ma][mb][ms][na][nb][nr][ns][oa][ob][or][os][pa][pb][pc][pr][ps][qa][qb][qc][qp][qq][qr][qs][ra][rb][rc][rd][re][rf][rn][ro][rq][rr][rs][sa][sb][sc][sd][se][sf][sg][sh][si][sk][sl][sm][sn][so][sp][sq][sr][ss]TB[dh][di][dj][ef][eg][eh][ei][ej][ek][el][em][ff][fg][fh][fi][fj][fk][fl][fm][fn][fo][ge][gf][gg][gh][gi][gj][gk][gl][gm][gn][go][he][hf][hg][hh][hi][hj][hk][hl][hm][hn][ho][id][ie][if][ig][ih][ii][ij][ik][il][im][in][io][jd][je][jf][jg][jh][ji][jk][jl][jm][jn][jo][jp][kd][ke][kf][kg][kh][ki][kj][kk][kl][km][kn][ko][kp][le][lf][lg][lh][li][lj][lk][ll][lm][ln][lo][lp][me][mf][mg][mh][mi][mj][mk][ml][mm][mn][nf][ng][nh][ni][nj][nk][nl][nm][of][og][oh][oi][oj][ok][ol][om][ph][pi][pj][pk][pl])[/[/sgf-full]

It's just one game so far, but it seems to be pretty much the same as before. I guess, GnuGo is even more discouraged to play an invasion now, due to the Ten Gen stone. Since I never had to resort to the komi points to win with white, I don't see a reason why it shouldn't work the same way when playing black.

[RobertJasiek]

My client hangs when I pass on my first turn with black

So a programming mistake forces you to lose 1 point.

Your games also show that the center is bigger than corners and edges if defended only. Why would I have expected this?:)

[daal]

Glofish, you truly deserve the batman smiley. These games are hilarious. Thanks for exposing GnuGo as the bot that it is.

[daniel_the_smith]

I thought this was a lame thread until I saw the games. That's a pretty large flaw you've found there! Very amusing.

[Mike Novack]

I'm not so sure. Not so sure that this is a specific flaw rather than a clear example of a more general problem. That the "evaluator" component (that chooses the next move) is unable to take into account global considerations, decides based just upon what it "thinks" is locally the best move even though that might be bad in global terms.

But isn't this a more or less typical failure at this level of playing strength? Or to put it another way, why gnugo's strength might be only 8k (or whatever it is) even though its local play strength might be higher than that? Don't human 8k's also fail to maintain "balance" between their positions in different parts of the board. Don't they play what they have learned as the best joseki irregardless of the fact that given what has been played in the other corners, they should play differently here.

Does a game between a human 1d and a human 8k (or whatever) look that different? Doesn't the weaker human player make precisely this sort of mistake in "direction of play"?

Something for the gnugo development team to address of course. Not maintaining balance in fuseki. I think that is the actual problem. Probably could come up with other examples where the program could be "tricked" into choosing local plays that were collectively bad besides the way done in these examples.

[lorill]

Don't human 8k's also fail to maintain "balance" between their positions in different parts of the board. Don't they play what they have learned as the best joseki irregardless of the fact that given what has been played in the other corners, they should play differently here.

Not that way. Even a 20k would have enough fighting spirit to at least try.

Does a game between a human 1d and a human 8k (or whatever) look that different?

Yes. Yes, we kuy players make tons of mistake, but I never saw anyone play so passively.

[Mike Novack]

Not that way. Even a 20k would have enough fighting spirit to at least try.

Does a game between a human 1d and a human 8k (or whatever) look that different?

Yes. Yes, we kuy players make tons of mistake, but I never saw anyone play so passively.

Are you suggesting that a human player (playing at about an 8 stone disadvantage in strength) would learn that "mixing it up" pays? I seriosuly doubt that. Playing agrressively, leaving behind groups that should/could survive in fights would give them the experience that "all my groups die when I play that way". Aji that is only a minor problem against equal strength opposition is disasterous when the opponent is so much stronger than we are.

The human 8k (or 20k) learns to prepare to break through against opposition not that much stronger than they are and so there are defects allowing them to break through and in the fighting and equal chance that the oppponent will make a mistake or misue the aji left behind. We learn from what succeeds, not from what fails. We don't/won't learn to play properly if our only game experience is playing even games against players that much stronger than ourselves doing their utmost against us

I think we are mistaking what we are seeing here. This "passivity" (failure to analyze globally) is why the program has the rating that it does. This part of its game is weak relative to other parts of its game so in practice the program comes out at about 8k overall (or whatever it is). We need to look at examples of human 8k's trying this "easy win" strategy against gnugo 3.8 . We may find that enough errors will be made in the josekis and sealing off and use of aji that the outcome is different. Conversely we may find that gnugo has a lower effective rating. But looking at games where the human player has about an 8 stone edge tells us little.

NOTE: The MCTS programs wouldn't play so passively but they would make what look like ridiculously bad moves if you force them to play at this disadvantage and don't let them resign. We need to accept that perhaps the computer programs are more sensitive to "the state of the game" than human players would be.