Life In 19x19

Because White has played the third line move in the middle of the left side and the low, tight formation in the upper right, White really can't play much of a moyo game, especially White can't contest Black in a moyo race. Since Black is ahead in developing a moyo both because he had the first move and because White has played "low and slow", Black can take territory by enclosing the lower right corner without losing any of his advantage. If Black plays at B White will certainly play in the lower right corner. Black can't kill such an invasion and having a stone at B really won't affect this.

Example? The attach-and-extend joseki. It IS a joseki, perfectly playable for us lower casts, but I honestly do not remember ever seeing it in even pro game. There are probably examples out there, but I suspect rather rare.

GoGoD has several hundred pro examples. Amateurs play it precisely because they are copying pros, or have been advised to play it by pros, not because they have had a sudden insight of their own into the depths of the game.

The fact that an opening move has not been played yet by a pro is not an argument for saying that that move is still available as a possibly good move. Pros have almost certainly considered just about every possible plausible looking move in the common patterns, and they have (so far) rejected most. History also shows that even when players do experiment with new moves, they soon revert to more traditional moves.

Looking for "good strategic/tactical reasons for rejecting the move [played by an amateur in defiance of pro practice]" is precisely what the pros have already done. Seems foolish for weak amateurs to ignore that. By all means play different moves for fun, but do resist the temptation to imply that this is a case of amateurs nobly trying to stretch intellectual boundaries.

Pippen wrote:

$$ A or B are fine
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$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
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$$ | . . O , . . . . . b . . . . . , . . . |
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$$ ---------------------------------------

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$ A or B are fine
$$ ---------------------------------------
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$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
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$$ | . . O , . . . . . b . . . . . , . . . |
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$$ | . . . O . . . . . X . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Black to play. I think best moves are between A and B. I wonder if B might be better than to enclose the corner, because 1. it puts more influence "pressure" on white and 2. it's an ideal first step for later deeper invasions and reductions. I know that if you are a pro with skills that B isn't much of a danger, but I wonder if this perception is right for amateurs. Would good amateurs play B and develop fast instead of enclosing? Would be cool to hear some 3D+ opinion.

For the record, I think Black is slightly ahead in this opening. White's extension on the left is a little slow, and probably should have been an approach in the lower right or a move in the top left.

White's extensions on the top and left sides are both low, and they won't related well to a White move at the tengen point. That being the case I don't think Black needs to be in a hurry to get there. I'd play 'a' without another thought and put the pressure on White to find a good plan. 'b' looks like a fancy move, but to me it has the danger of being flash without substance.

pwaldron wrote:

Pippen wrote:

$$ A or B are fine
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . O . . O . . X . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
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$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
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$$ | . . O , . . . . . b . . . . . , . . . |
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$$ | . . . O . . . . . X . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
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$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$ A or B are fine
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . O . . O . . X . . |
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$$ | . . O , . . . . . b . . . . . , . . . |
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$$ | . . . O . . . . . X . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
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$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Black to play. I think best moves are between A and B. I wonder if B might be better than to enclose the corner, because 1. it puts more influence "pressure" on white and 2. it's an ideal first step for later deeper invasions and reductions. I know that if you are a pro with skills that B isn't much of a danger, but I wonder if this perception is right for amateurs. Would good amateurs play B and develop fast instead of enclosing? Would be cool to hear some 3D+ opinion.

For the record, I think Black is slightly ahead in this opening. White's extension on the left is a little slow, and probably should have been an approach in the lower right or a move in the top left.

White's extensions on the top and left sides are both low, and they won't related well to a White move at the tengen point. That being the case I don't think Black needs to be in a hurry to get there. I'd play 'a' without another thought and put the pressure on White to find a good plan. 'b' looks like a fancy move, but to me it has the danger of being flash without substance.

i strongly disagree with your opinion.
in my opinion white maintain the balance and playing a solid game.
if white played high then i prefer black because white is thin.

when your opponent plays influence game..one of the way to counter that is to play more solid game.
white is doing exactly that.

Magicwand wrote:i strongly disagree with your opinion.
in my opinion white maintain the balance and playing a solid game.
if white played high then i prefer black because white is thin.

when your opponent plays influence game..one of the way to counter that is to play more solid game.
white is doing exactly that.

I strongly disagree with your opinion. White looks slow, not solid.

Playing solidly is fine, but are you arguing that a low extension on the left is better (or at least as good as) any of the other moves marked 'b' below? I have seven game records with the position below and not one time did white play 'a' as a follow-up.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . O . . O . . X . . |
$$ | . . . O . b . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . b b . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
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$$ | . . a , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
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$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
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$$ | . . . O . . . . . X . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . b . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$---------------------------------------[/go]

pwaldron wrote:...Playing solidly is fine, but are you arguing that a low extension on the left is better (or at least as good as) any of the other moves marked 'b' below? I have seven game records with the position below and not one time did white play 'a' as a follow-up.

$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . O . . O . . X . . |
$$ | . . . O . b . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . b b . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
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$$ | . . a , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
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$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . X . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . b . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$---------------------------------------

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . O . . O . . X . . |
$$ | . . . O . b . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . b b . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
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$$ | . . a , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . X . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . b . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$---------------------------------------[/go]

The summer 2010 version of GoGoD has 10 games from this position. In all ten White chose the 1-space high approach in the lower right as the next play, and won seven of the games. On the other hand, Gu Li has contributed two of White's three losses - the last two games played, 1 in 2007 and 1 in 2010 - so maybe White should consider something else.

More broadly, however, consider the side position below where White has responded at C6 to a Black approach at F3. In almost 1500 pro games in GoGoD there is not a single example of White playing at 'a' as the next move on this side.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$c -------------
$$ | . . . . . . . .
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$$ | . . . O . . . .
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$$ | . . a , . . . .
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$$ | . . O . . . . .
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$$ | . . . O . . . .
$$ | . . . . . X . .
$$ | . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . .
$$------------------[/go]

Similarly, there are 171 examples of the position below, White responding to a Black approach when C10 is already on the board. In this case there is exactly one game in which White played at 'a', but guess what... an amateur played it (colors reversed) in a handicap teaching game against a pro!

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$c -------------
$$ | . . . . . . . .
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$$ | . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . O . . . .
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$$ | . . O , . . . .
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$$ | . . . . . . . .
$$------------------[/go]

just because more professionals had better winning percentage it doesnt mean anything.

when i play white with 6.5 komi that is what i prefer.
5.5 may be totally different game.

reason why i posted my opinion is that i want people to feel the thickness of white.

why do amature players try to decide what is good and bad when professionals dont agree?
it is a matter of taste. some people like white some like black. and i used to like black but now i like white.

John Fairbairn wrote:
Looking for "good strategic/tactical reasons for rejecting the move [played by an amateur in defiance of pro practice]" is precisely what the pros have already done. Seems foolish for weak amateurs to ignore that. By all means play different moves for fun, but do resist the temptation to imply that this is a case of amateurs nobly trying to stretch intellectual boundaries.

The question is whose intellectual boundaries. When amateurs play moves in defiance of pro practice, the purpose is generally not to add to the global go consciousness (your database) but rather to improve their own chances of winning the game. The reasons that the move has been determined to be inferior are a subset of the depth that the position has been read out. That is, if the amateur is aware of the rejected continuation and still plays the move, he is indeed foolish. If however he plays the move with another, perhaps shorter continuation in mind, he is presumably pressing the intellectual boundaries of himself and his opponent in the direction of the professional's.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but when Bantari writes: "do we have a solid reasons to believe that if a pro has not played a fuseki pattern yet, it is not a good pattern?" he does not mean that a professional might not have thought it out, but rather that the professional's reasoning may be irrelevant. This is surely the case if any of the follow-up moves do not conform to the professional's continuation. To ask why is not to imply a weakness in the professional's reasoning, but rather to challenge the solidity of his own.

Amateurs have a greater potential for broadening insight about the game than professionals simply because there are many more amateurs than professionals... More professionals have said they wanted to try my black fuseki than have said it was bad. (By far the most have said that they did not know.)

I disagree that players with new fusekis would come back to established fusekis; rather I use both. Winning percentage was much greater when my invention was a novelty; now it approaches that of traditional fuseki; it does not fall below it though. Therefore more new fusekis should be invented as secret weapons quite like more new josekis were and are invented to surprise unprepared opponents.