103. EdLee vs topazg

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topazg
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Re: 103. EdLee vs topazg

Post by topazg »

Changed my mind, this looks too fun.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm11 Prisoners: :w100: :b100:
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . O . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . O . . O . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


I need to sit on the naughty step. But, Go is supposed to be enjoyable, so I may as well see if I can have fun with something interesting like this.

FWIW, this isn't just blind craziness. The left hand side is very important, as White has facing 4-4s, and his low pincer de-prioritises the top somewhat, so a counter pincer has a lot of sense behind it anyway. I really strongly considered invading the 3-3 because I'm not sure if it is best for White to block facing the left edge without central support, but if I want the left side anyway, I may as well just play it. I've started preferring this move slightly to the tighter double approach at D14 - mostly because I've seen it a few times in more recent professional play, but also because a 3d friend sucker punched me with it in another game.

So, let the fun begin:

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Magicwand
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Re: 103. EdLee vs topazg

Post by Magicwand »

magicwand comment by request:
for obs only:
my first instinct is as below.
i dont like black's move but i can not see any way to show it is a bad move..
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm11 Prisoners:
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . O . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . 2 . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . O . . O . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


personally i rather have my stone as below than black's last move..
:b11: is helpful in 3-3 invasion but other move is....just laying down the stone in empty space.
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm11 Prisoners:
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . O . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . 2 . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . C . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . O . . O . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
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The greater the unknown"
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Re: 103. EdLee vs topazg

Post by Fredrik »

Magicwand wrote:magicwand comment by request:
for obs only:
my first instinct is as below.
i dont like black's move but i can not see any way to show it is a bad move..
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm11 Prisoners:
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . O . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . 2 . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . O . . O . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


personally i rather have my stone as below than black's last move..
:b11: is helpful in 3-3 invasion but other move is....just laying down the stone in empty space.
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm11 Prisoners:
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . O . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . 2 . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . C . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . O . . O . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]



I'm at my friends place so can't really provide diagrams right now, but you are missing the point of Topazgs move Magicwand. His counter-pincer is a recent innovation (last 5 years or so) and has been played many times professionly. The main idea is that, if white play the move you suggested, black will enter the 3-3. After the normal joseki play out, blacks stone will be further from the wall which will be better.

(White will block from the top (C16) (and let black connect his 3-3 to his first approach at top.

If White blocks with D17, Black can push at C16. If White then proceed to hane (C15), Black can cut at (D15). This variation (the one with block at D17) was played between Lee Changho and Chang Hao in 2006 when the move started to get experimented with. I remember I was in China that time and was also amazed =)

I do believe that you will understand from just my text, perhaps you can provide the diagrams for the weaker players Magicwand?



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Re: 103. EdLee vs topazg

Post by Magicwand »

Fredrik wrote:
Magicwand wrote:magicwand comment by request:
for obs only:
my first instinct is as below.
i dont like black's move but i can not see any way to show it is a bad move..
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm11 Prisoners:
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . O . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . 2 . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . O . . O . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


personally i rather have my stone as below than black's last move..
:b11: is helpful in 3-3 invasion but other move is....just laying down the stone in empty space.
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm11 Prisoners:
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . O . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . 2 . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . C . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . O . . O . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]



I'm at my friends place so can't really provide diagrams right now, but you are missing the point of Topazgs move Magicwand. His counter-pincer is a recent innovation (last 5 years or so) and has been played many times professionly. The main idea is that, if white play the move you suggested, black will enter the 3-3. After the normal joseki play out, blacks stone will be further from the wall which will be better.

(White will block from the top (C16) (and let black connect his 3-3 to his first approach at top.

If White blocks with D17, Black can push at C16. If White then proceed to hane (C15), Black can cut at (D15). This variation (the one with block at D17) was played between Lee Changho and Chang Hao in 2006 when the move started to get experimented with. I remember I was in China that time and was also amazed =)

I do believe that you will understand from just my text, perhaps you can provide the diagrams for the weaker players Magicwand?



[/Hide]


thank you for your info.. i think i remember that game.
after my post..i thought about the board and and saw the merit of black's move.

but i rather not play his move.

there were time below diag were considered joeski..(which i disagreed to some point)
and black's two space high pincer look worse than below diag i my opinion.
i am not going to say what professionals play is wrong but i will say it is not to my liking.
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm11 Prisoners:
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . O . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . 2 . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 1 , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . O . . O . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


i guess your variation is as below.
and i did some continuation..but i dont think it is good for black.
let me know if you beg to differ.
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm11 Prisoners:
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . 7 9 . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 3 5 6 X . O . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 4 O 8 2 . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . 1 . a . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . 0 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . O . . O . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
"The more we think we know about
The greater the unknown"
Words by neil peart, music by geddy lee and alex lifeson
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Re: 103. EdLee vs topazg

Post by Fredrik »

Magicwand wrote:
Fredrik wrote:
Magicwand wrote:magicwand comment by request:
for obs only:
my first instinct is as below.
i dont like black's move but i can not see any way to show it is a bad move..
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm11 Prisoners:
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . O . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . 2 . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . O . . O . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


personally i rather have my stone as below than black's last move..
:b11: is helpful in 3-3 invasion but other move is....just laying down the stone in empty space.
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm11 Prisoners:
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . O . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . 2 . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . C . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . O . . O . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]



I'm at my friends place so can't really provide diagrams right now, but you are missing the point of Topazgs move Magicwand. His counter-pincer is a recent innovation (last 5 years or so) and has been played many times professionly. The main idea is that, if white play the move you suggested, black will enter the 3-3. After the normal joseki play out, blacks stone will be further from the wall which will be better.

(White will block from the top (C16) (and let black connect his 3-3 to his first approach at top.

If White blocks with D17, Black can push at C16. If White then proceed to hane (C15), Black can cut at (D15). This variation (the one with block at D17) was played between Lee Changho and Chang Hao in 2006 when the move started to get experimented with. I remember I was in China that time and was also amazed =)

I do believe that you will understand from just my text, perhaps you can provide the diagrams for the weaker players Magicwand?



[/Hide]


thank you for your info.. i think i remember that game.
after my post..i thought about the board and and saw the merit of black's move.

but i rather not play his move.

there were time below diag were considered joeski..(which i disagreed to some point)
and black's two space high pincer look worse than below diag i my opinion.
i am not going to say what professionals play is wrong but i will say it is not to my liking.
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm11 Prisoners:
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . O . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . 2 . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 1 , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . O . . O . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


i guess your variation is as below.
and i did some continuation..but i dont think it is good for black.
let me know if you beg to differ.
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm11 Prisoners:
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . 7 9 . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 3 5 6 X . O . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 4 O 8 2 . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . 1 . a . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . 0 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . O . . O . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]



Yeah this last variation is great for black. Next, I can hane at G16, and if you cut you will be in great danger.. I can provide some variations tomorrow or later tonight. I don't think White can counter-pincer. Usually White finish the joseki by playing at B16 first, in which Black answer with an extension on the leftside.
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Re: 103. EdLee vs topazg

Post by Magicwand »

Fredrik wrote:
Yeah this last variation is great for black. Next, I can hane at G16, and if you cut you will be in great danger.. I can provide some variations tomorrow or later tonight. I don't think White can counter-pincer. Usually White finish the joseki by playing at B16 first, in which Black answer with an extension on the leftside.


agree with you 100%. counter pincer is an overplay..
also..since black has chinese opening with solid point advantage i think giving up the corner in gote is out of the question.

thank you for your input.


edit:
but i still would play counter pincer.. anything else is a losing picture in my eye.. :D
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EdLee
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Post by EdLee »

Usually B's double approach is at (a) or (b);
seems topazg is in the mood for something a little different. :)
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bm11
$$ ---------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . X . O . .
$$ | . . . O . . . . . ,
$$ | . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . b a . . . . . .
$$ | . . . X . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . .[/go]
A first feeling is the attach :wc:, which locally makes good shape for W,
after which B has the hane (a), wedge (b), and possibly many other variations.
Have to think about this.
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bm11
$$ ---------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . X . O . .
$$ | . . . O b W a . . ,
$$ | . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . X . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . .[/go]
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EdLee
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Post by EdLee »

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wm12
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . O . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . 1 . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . O . . O . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
Many variations here. Just have to take it one move at a time.
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Re: 103. EdLee vs topazg

Post by topazg »

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bm13 Prisoners: :w100: :b100:
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 1 . . X . O . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . O . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . O . . O . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


The idea here is to take the left sided corner, but bigger than with the nearer double approach, or neutralise the left whilst living in the corner. Normal stuff, with a few more complications.
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EdLee
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Post by EdLee »

Pondering this sequence:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bm13
$$ -----------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . 5 . . . . .
$$ | . . 1 3 . X . O . . .
$$ | . . 2 O 4 O . . . , .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . .[/go]
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Re: 103. EdLee vs topazg

Post by topazg »

Some thoughts:

As I said before, I picked this because I want to value the left side now. As White, I'd have picked a different pincer that kept the top side more interesting (J16 appeals the most), as I think that makes Black's choice a bit harder. I chose this double approach over D14 because it's apparently what all the cool kids do these days, and I wanted to try it out. So, how do I envisage it progressing?

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bm13 Standard joseki
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . 7 6 8 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 1 2 . X . O . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 3 O . O . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . 0 4 5 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 9 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . O . . O . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bm23 Continuation
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . X . O . . . . . a . . . . . |
$$ | . 1 X O . O . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . O O X 2 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X 3 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . a . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . O . . O . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


I'm happy with this. Points, alive-ness, and a sort of miai of "a" points. The block at D17 is considered better than E17 because D17 creates some liberty issues for Black, and the normal reason of playing E17 is that it kills F17. However, because of the placement of H17, it doesn't, as Black gets to resurrect the stone later with G17, so the aji is huge.

Of course, White may block the other side:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bm13 Other block
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . 5 . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 1 3 . X . O . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 2 O 4 O a . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . b . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . O . . O . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


The cut at "a" is pretty severe now, so I suspect White will fix in gote, and Black gets to take "b". The top side then becomes mega urgent.

If Black tries to resist better, I don't think it works:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bm13 Black goes crazy
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . 0 . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 1 9 8 X 4 O . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 2 O 5 O 3 . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . 7 6 . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . b . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . O . . O . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


After White captures, none of the liberty issues are in Black's favour. So, better to hold the corner and leave the ability to do this, than play it when it doesn't work. Honte and all that.
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Re: 103. EdLee vs topazg

Post by Magicwand »

another comment by magicwand: for obs only:
i guess topazg has studied this variation well.
i will hold my comment until he finish this variation for i think he is stronger than i am at this variation :D
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Post by EdLee »

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wm14
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . X . O . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 1 O . O . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . O . . O . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
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EdLee
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Post by EdLee »

Deciding among (a), (b), and (c) was non-trivial for me,
as each has many variations with different implications both locally and globally:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wm14 Choices
$$ -------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . X b c X . O .
$$ | . . a O . O . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . X . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . .[/go]
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B Reference joseki
$$ -------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . 7 5 6 . . . .
$$ | . . 1 2 8 X . O .
$$ | . . 3 O . . . . .
$$ | . . . 4 . . . . .
$$ | . . 9 . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . d . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . .[/go]
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W Reference variation
$$ -------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . 4 5 . . . . .
$$ | . . X 1 . X . O .
$$ | . . 2 O . 9 . . .
$$ | . . 3 6 7 . . . .
$$ | . . 0 8 . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . .[/go]
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W Variation (b) 1
$$ -------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . X 1 . X . O .
$$ | . . 2 O . O . . .
$$ | . . 4 3 . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . X . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . .[/go]
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W Variation (b) 2
$$ -------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . 4 3 5 . . . . .
$$ | . . X O . X . O .
$$ | . 8 X O . O . . .
$$ | . 7 1 2 9 . . . .
$$ | . . 6 0 . . . . .
$$ | . . . X . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . .[/go]
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W Variation (c)
$$ -------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . X . 1 X e O .
$$ | . . 2 O . O . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . f . . . . . .
$$ | . . . X . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . .[/go]
For example, in variations (b)1, (b)2 and (c), although W has sente (say, to extend from the lower left corner),
it seems locally B is (slightly?) better than W, as B is higher and completely settled with no weakness,
much like B is better in the Reference variation than in the Reference joseki,
where B is lower and later W has the good point (d).
In variation (c), later W has (f) but B also has (e).

These are merely a few of the myriad of variations.
Looks like we might have a messy fighting game.
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Re: 103. EdLee vs topazg

Post by topazg »

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wm14
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X 2 . X . O . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 1 O . O . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . O . . O . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


No choice here
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