Life In 19x19

3-3 approach not 3-4 is normal in the discussed position, eh.

When I was stuck at 5kyu forever, the 2kyu at our local club would get me with that variation every single time so it wasn't until I read Basic Techniques of Go (which also spends quite a few pages going over that joseki) that I figured it out. Let white get a single wing + enclosure but if he goes for double wing - hit the 3-3.

Yilun Yang wrote a book called 'Fundamental Principles of Go' in which he ranked moves in the fuseki. First class moves were taking an open corner. Second class moves were completing a shimari from a 3-4 or 3-5, or approaching one of those, or a side move between two corners oriented toward that side. Third class moves were approaching a 4-4 or 3-3, or a side without two corners oriented toward it.
Implied in this ranking is that one should exhaust first class moves, then play second class moves, etc.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$Wc The direction of play from the corner stones
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$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
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$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ { AR D5 D7 }
$$ { AR E4 G4 }
$$ { AR P4 N4 }
$$ { AR Q5 Q7 }[/go]

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[go]$$Wc An important side according to Yang.
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$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$Wc The direction of play from the corner stones
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$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
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$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ { AR D5 D7 }
$$ { AR E4 G4 }
$$ { AR Q5 Q7 }[/go]

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[go]$$Wc A semi-important side according to Yang
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$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$Wc The direction of play from the corner stones
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$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . |
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$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ { AR Q5 Q7 }[/go]

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$Wc A relatively unimportant side.
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$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
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$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Due to the constraints of this game, I can't go looking in the book right now, but there was a bit more than that. I just don't recall what. And I may have the numbering slightly off - there were sub-classes - but the order is correct.

The first two plays of this game were first class moves - we took empty corners.

The next possibilities are second class moves: completing my shimari or taking a side:

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[go]$$Wc Prisoner Count: B-0 W-0
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$$ | . . . b . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
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$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . O , d . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . c . . . . . . . . . |
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$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Note that the right side is not considered because it has only one adjacent corner with a stone/group aimed in its direction. ( The current direction of the 5-4 is westward. It will change to northward if I complete the shimari )

I'm choosing 'a' because I get the best balance. Move 'd' keeps all of my stones in one corner of the board, as does 'c', almost. Moves 'a' and 'b' are almost equal in that respect, with 'a' winning over 'b' by an angstrom.

Joaz Banbeck wrote:[Note that the right side is not considered because it has only one adjacent corner with a stone/group aimed in its direction. ( The current direction of the 5-4 is westward. It will change to northward if I complete the shimari )

The comment above does not necessarily follow Yang principles. Yang looks at the size of the sides based on the distance between stones and the height of the stones bordering that side. So, at this point in the game, the top and left are the same size in terms of distance and are both bordered by two 4 line stones. The lower side is one smaller, and is also bordered by two 4 line stones. The right side, that Joaz rejects is the same distance as the top and left, but it is bordered by a 4th line stone and a 5th line stone - this suggests that it is the biggest side at this moment.

Now I am not strong enough to interpret Yang correctly and fully, but I think Joaz has a detail wrong here. Perhaps this argues all the more for simply making the shimari. This does seem slow in a handicap game. Because of the handicap nature, I like the star point on the right. Certainly I question the splitting move when there is another very similar one on the left side - if there are two is it urgent to take one?

I expect my opponent to lean on this stone, press it down to make a wall, then jump westward. I don't exactly know a ton of 4-5 joseki, but if this happens I could probably take the corner or tenuki and be content. On the other hand, if my opponent blocks me out of the corner, I may get to prevent/check his extension. The reason I don't play one space lower, to assure more points in the corner, is that I have a star point in the top right. Any strength I build on the right-side (even strength that gets pushed a bit flat) will work with that radiating influence. As an alternative, my opponent could slide into the corner, in which case I will probably make a stable group in sente. I know I've been much more text-heavy this time, but sometimes text makes more sense than diagrams. If anyone has any questions or wants to see specifics, let me know. =)

I am not directly familiar with Yang's works, but-
What Joaz has said is in line with common opening theory (see: any author). R10 or Q10 directly would be a [direction] mistake, though perhaps aiming at chew wandering into... see earlier posts. If instead of a 4-4, black had a shimari facing that side, then yes, white could play there naturally.

I do think perhaps Joaz' explanations are coloured by Takeo Kajiwara.

I'm sure I've heard it said that at <4 handicap you should play completely normally.

How's it goin'? I found your text commentary easy to follow, but- you're expecting a slightly taller version of a 5-3 joseki? I don't know 5-4s well myself, so I dunno either.

Started to quote you, but then remembered that that would show me ALL of your hide tags. Closed my eyes and hit backspace to be safe. =D Yep, a slightly taller 3-5 joseki is exactly what I'm thinking. I'm doing well. Had a frustrating game last night where my fatal flaw of unwise thinness was punished, but otherwise, I'm really getting back into go and enjoying it, lately. As such, I'm really looking forwards to this game. I'm a LITTLE uncomfortable with some of the shapes we're already developing, but only because they're unfamiliar, not because they're necesassarily bad.

Yeah, I think Kajiwara has flavoured his comments too, and rightly so IMHO

One slight shortcoming in Joaz' explanations, from my perspective, is that a 4-4 is not synonymous with a shimari in the direction they both want. The urgency of the development on the right, in the diagram below, is bigger than on the left, even though both bottom corners "want" their respective areas developed:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$Wc Prisoner Count: B-0 W-0
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$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . |
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$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ { AR D5 D7 }
$$ { AR Q5 Q10 }[/go]

Chew Terr wrote:Started to quote you, but then remembered that that would show me ALL of your hide tags. Closed my eyes and hit backspace to be safe.

Close the browser! Right, never press the "Quote" button in your own Malkovich game; only copy & paste.

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[go]$$Wc Prisoner Count: B-0 W-0
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$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 6 . . |
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$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . x y . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . O , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . 7 . . . z . . . . . . O . . |
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$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

I considered playing one point higher than this, but solid is good. I'm going to try to keep solid. I expect my opponent will jump towards the bottom left, possibly after trading 'x' for 'y'. This would be good for him, but it's better than letting my approach stone get attacked, so I'm mostly okay with it for now. Alternatively, he could jump somewhere like 'z', which seems a bit slow, especially for a handicap game.

I believe that my honorable opponent has made a slight mis-step on move #4.

The most common approaches to a 5-4 are the 3-4 and 3-3 invasions ( noted with 'a' and 'b' below ). The 5-3 approach is generally regarded as special purpose move, used only for the rare occasion in which the side is worth more than the corner. In this instance, given that there is only one other stone on the side ( at Q 16 ), the side is not worth more.

$$Wc Prisoner Count: B-0 W-0
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$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
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$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 4 . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . O , a . . |
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$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$Wc Prisoner Count: B-0 W-0
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$$ | . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
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$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 4 . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . O , a . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . b . . |
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$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

I clearly cannot let black continue from his approach and have the corner like this:

$$Wc White is eyeless and floating
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$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . O , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 6 . . . |
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$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------

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[go]$$Wc White is eyeless and floating
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$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 4 . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . O , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 6 . . . |
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$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

So the obvious answer for me is to take the 3-3 point for myself:

$$Wc White gets the corner
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$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . O , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 5 . . |
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$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------

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[go]$$Wc White gets the corner
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$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 4 . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . O , . . . |
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$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

This not only gets a small corner for me, but it threatens to attack his stone with a pincer:

$$Wc
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$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 7 . . |
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$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 4 . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . O , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 5 . . |
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$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$Wc
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
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$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 7 . . |
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$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 4 . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . O , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 5 . . |
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$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

...or shoulder hit:

$$Wc
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$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 7 . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 4 . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . O , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 5 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$Wc
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$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 7 . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 4 . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . O , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 5 . . |
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$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

So I will not only get territory, I'll probably get sente when he defends.
There is only one reasonable way to defend:

$$Wc The simple 2-space jump
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$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 4 . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . O , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 5 . . |
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$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------

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[go]$$Wc The simple 2-space jump
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$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 6 . . |
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$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 4 . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . O , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 5 . . |
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$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

The slide underneath is just too small:

$$Wc Black gets maybe two points, \n white gets more than that and a solid base\n ...and sente
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$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 4 . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . O , . 8 . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 5 6 . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 9 . 7 . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$Wc Black gets maybe two points, \n white gets more than that and a solid base\n ...and sente
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 4 . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . O , . 8 . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 5 6 . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 9 . 7 . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

====================================================

Another way of looking at this involves tewari analysis ( see http://senseis.xmp.net/?Tewari ) If we consider the same position, but pretend that it was arrived at by a different sequence, we sometimes can gain additional insight.

Let's look at it like this:

$$Wc Same stones, different order of placement
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 4 . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . 5 , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 3 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$Wc Same stones, different order of placement
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 4 . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . 5 , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 3 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Here we have a white 3-3 stone alone in a corner, and black makes a 5-3 approach. This is rather odd, making a low approach to a low stone. The 3-3 stone is the king of low stones, being low with respect to two sides, and any low stone attempting to contest it in 'lowness' will come in second.

The primary weakness that 3-3 stone has is that it lacks influence, so the common approaches are high, at the circled spots:

$$Wc Three high approaches, on biased to one side, one to the other,\n and one squatting directly on top.
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . C . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . C . C . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 3 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$Wc Three high approaches, on biased to one side, one to the other,\n and one squatting directly on top.
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . C . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . C . C . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 3 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

This is usually the most reasonable approach - to take what the 3-3 stone has left easily available.

Again, in this joseki, the 3-5 is a special purpose play, used when the side is worth more than the corner. And again, in this game, it looks odd because the side is not bigger.

=========================================================================

In summary: He played toward the side too much, so I'll take the corner. Net result is better for me.

On the right side of the board, his group is semi-weak. I have several possible plays against it. Move 'a' is a good large-scale attack; 'b' and or 'c' are nice for squashing it down - and very useful for territory if I should find myself with strength in the lower middle around 'x'; and 'd' or 'e' may be convenient if by some misfortune I should happen to need to cower in the corner to stay alive.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$Wc Prisoner Count: B-0 W-0
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , a . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 6 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . b . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . c . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X d . |
$$ | . . . X . . . x . , . . . . O , . e . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

The unfortunate thing about any of those 3 strategies is that they are all mutual aji-keshi: that is, playing any one of them induces a response from him that them pretty much removes the effectiveness of the other two. Since most of the board is still wide open, I don't yet know which one I will want, so it is too early for me to choose.

Before concluding the issue, I must ask if it is early enough for him to choose. Can he profitably remove any or all of the possiblities before I am able to make an informed choice? Might I be faced with the necessity of playing one of them right now to prevent him from taking it himself?

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$Wc Prisoner Count: B-0 W-0
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . C . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 8 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , C . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 6 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . x . , . . . . O , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

First, he can stry something around 'a' himself. But this looks small and over concentrated on one side. No matter where he plays - such as above - there will always be at least one opening for me to invade. So if he can't secure the side with one move, it looks to small for him to try 'a'.

Next, he can try expanding to prevent the squashing moves of 'b' or 'c'.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$Wc Prisoner Count: B-0 W-0
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 6 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 8 . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . x . , . . 9 . O , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Again, such a move looks overconcentrated, and when I reply with , I appear to have gotten more than he.

Last, he can slide into the corner, to prevent 'd' and 'e' but as noted in my previous post, I get more out of such a sequence than he does.

So, in conclusion, it is too early for me, and too early for him. I see no urgency - nor even a big move - on the right side.

More thoughts about other portions of the board will appear later...