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Re: 105: emerus (3k) vs Mnemonic (8k)
Posted: Wed Mar 23, 2011 8:13 am
by topazg
Indeed. In fact, Choi Cheolhan played it just the other day (move 61)
[sgf-full](;
WR[8d]
BR[9d]
RE[W+R]
FF[4]
SZ[19]
PW[Heo Yeongho]
GM[1]
DT[2011-03-10]
PB[Choi Cheolhan]
KM[6.5]
EV[3rd BC Card Cup]
RO[3]
SO[Mr. Kin]
;B[qd];W[dc];B[de];W[ce];B[dd];W[cd];B[ec];W[cf];B[df];W[dg];B[cc]
;W[db];B[bc];W[cb];B[cg];W[ch];B[bb];W[eb];B[bg];W[bf];B[bh];W[bd]
;B[fc];W[dh];B[ci];W[di];B[cj];W[fb];B[fe];W[dj];B[ck];W[gc];B[gd]
;W[hc];B[hf];W[el];B[dm];W[pp];B[gi];W[em];B[dn];W[fo];B[dq];W[fq]
;B[jp];W[hl];B[nq];W[qn];B[ho];W[hq];B[ep];W[go];B[iq];W[hp];B[pr]
;W[qq];B[ip];W[hn];B[no];W[oc];B[pe];W[pi];B[nd];W[lo];B[lq];W[nn]
;B[on];W[oo];B[nm];W[mn];B[pk];W[pn];B[oi];W[oh];B[oj];W[pg];B[nh]
;W[ng];B[mh];W[mg];B[lg];W[me];B[nc];W[lh];B[mj];W[nb];B[od];W[pj]
;B[ok];W[lc];B[qh];W[ph];B[kg];W[pb];B[qg];W[qf];B[pf];W[qk];B[rf]
;W[rj];B[pc];W[ob];B[qb];W[li];B[jh];W[lj];B[lk];W[kk];B[ll];W[jj]
;B[kl];W[ik];B[om];W[np];B[mi];W[gg];B[hd];W[id];B[ie];W[jd];B[dk]
;W[fj];B[fi];W[ej];B[fg];W[fh];B[gh];W[ff];B[eh];W[eg];B[mp];W[mo]
;B[gf];W[fh];B[hr];W[gr];B[fg];W[dr];B[cr];W[qr];B[ef];W[nr];B[mr]
;W[oq];B[mq];W[or];B[ir];W[er];B[bq];W[io];B[kr];W[ba];B[ql];W[rl]
;B[qm];W[rm];B[kd];W[ke];B[kc];W[ld];B[mb];W[mc];B[je];W[kb];B[kf]
;W[le];B[pa];W[lb];B[en];W[jl])[/sgf-full]
Re: 105: emerus (3k) vs Mnemonic (8k)
Posted: Wed Mar 23, 2011 1:41 pm
by emerus
<my mistake - removed>
emeraldemon wrote: So, while [P4 is] unusual in modern games
I just want to mention that somehow the diagonal has gotten a reputation as an "old move" among amateurs (probably Hikaru no Go?), but it isn't actually. I used GoGoD to search games from 1990 to the present, and found it was the second most popular move:
$$B Most common responses, 1990-2011
Click Here To Show Diagram Code [go]$$B Most common responses, 1990-2011a - 2090 games
b - 1860 games
c - 1109 games
plus a bunch of other stuff.
Yeah I was worried that might have been misunderstood. I was referring to the position on the bottom of the board where the 2 space high or the more aggressive 1 space high pincer is the fashion.
Posted: Wed Mar 23, 2011 1:51 pm
by EdLee
emerus wrote: Yeah I was worried that might have been misunderstood. I was referring to the position on the bottom of the board where the 2 space high or the more aggressive 1 space high pincer is the fashion.
I thought this was a closed comments game?
Re: 105: emerus (3k) vs Mnemonic (8k)
Posted: Wed Mar 23, 2011 1:58 pm
by emerus
$$Bcm1 Prisoner Count: B-0 W-0
Click Here To Show Diagram Code [go]$$Bcm1 Prisoner Count: B-0 W-0
[sgf-full](;GM[1]FF[4]CA[UTF-8]AP[CGoban:3]ST[2]
RU[Japanese]SZ[19]KM[0.00]
GN[]DT[2011-03-23]PC
[http://lifein19x19.com/]AW[dd][qo][cp][gq]AB[qc][ep][op][pq]C[Diagram from
http://lifein19x19.com/ ]PL[B]
(;B[fo]C[I think this is the simplest move and right idea - but my move would be at e2.]MN[9]
(;W[cm]
;B[hp]
(;W[iq]
;B[kq]C[I like black.])
(;W[dq]
;B[eq]C[I dont see a good white move to use
g3.]))
(;W[dq]C[I'm leaning towards just territory.]
;B[hp]
;W[fr]
;B[in])
(;W[go]
;B[gn]
;W[gp]C[I dont
know some of the other variations for this. But I really like the common line here -]
;B[hn]
;W[eq]))
(;B[er]
;W[dn]
;B[fo]
;W[jq]C[I feel black has some more potential this way.]))[/sgf-full]
Ugh, forum posting is killing me. I can't get any post right.
Re:
Posted: Wed Mar 23, 2011 1:59 pm
by emerus
EdLee wrote: emerus wrote: Yeah I was worried that might have been misunderstood. I was referring to the position on the bottom of the board where the 2 space high or the more aggressive 1 space high pincer is the fashion.
I thought this was a closed comments game?
Oh woops. No, I just misquoted the wrong post. Didn't even realize or read it, though I guess I saw it.
Sorry fellas....
@emerus
Just so that you don't feel left out with all the hidden comments directed at me
@mnemonic
Aw, how sweet.
It's cool that this is an observed malkovich. Your comments must be pretty good.
Posted: Wed Mar 23, 2011 2:14 pm
by EdLee
emerus:
It's OK. Browser mis-click happens.
I found it dangerous to use the "quote" button in my own Malkovich game.
Re: 105: emerus (3k) vs Mnemonic (8k)
Posted: Thu Mar 24, 2011 5:45 am
by Mnemonic
$$Bcm11 Prisoner Count: B-0 W-0
Click Here To Show Diagram Code [go]$$Bcm11 Prisoner Count: B-0 W-0
I don't like this move. It looks odd and I don't think it is joseki (although I'm hardly an expert on that) The problem is, most of my moves result in an shapeless, eyeless, floating group for black.
$$Bcm11 Most Ideas still revolve around (a) and (b) with maybe a kikashi first around the shaded area
Click Here To Show Diagram Code [go]$$Bcm11 Most Ideas still revolve around (a) and (b) with maybe a kikashi first around the shaded area$$Bcm11 looks ok, but I'm more woried about the crosscut
Click Here To Show Diagram Code [go]$$Bcm11 looks ok, but I'm more woried about the crosscut$$Bcm11 About the best I can come up with. I get a wall in sente but W conects with big corner
Click Here To Show Diagram Code [go]$$Bcm11 About the best I can come up with. I get a wall in sente but W conects with big corner$$Bcm11 Can't really say I like this variation, but it's probably the best I can come up with
Click Here To Show Diagram Code [go]$$Bcm11 Can't really say I like this variation, but it's probably the best I can come up with$$Bcm11 The problem with any plays here is that white can ignore them. And now?
Click Here To Show Diagram Code [go]$$Bcm11 The problem with any plays here is that white can ignore them. And now?$$Bcm11 better shape?
Click Here To Show Diagram Code [go]$$Bcm11 better shape?Conclusion:
Re: 105: emerus (3k) vs Mnemonic (8k)
Posted: Thu Mar 24, 2011 6:36 am
by topazg
Hidden until the corner is resolved, then for Mnemonic
You don't like the following?
$$Bcm11 About the best I can come up with. I get a wall in sente but W conects with big corner
Click Here To Show Diagram Code [go]$$Bcm11 About the best I can come up with. I get a wall in sente but W conects with big cornerContinuation perhaps:
$$Bcm21 About the best I can come up with. I get a wall in sente but W conects with big corner
Click Here To Show Diagram Code [go]$$Bcm21 About the best I can come up with. I get a wall in sente but W conects with big cornerThat's not that great a corner, and what thickness you have - and in sente! I'd take it, anyway
Re: 105: emerus (3k) vs Mnemonic (8k)
Posted: Thu Mar 24, 2011 2:52 pm
by emerus
$$Bcm11 Prisoner Count: B-0 W-0
Click Here To Show Diagram Code [go]$$Bcm11 Prisoner Count: B-0 W-0
[sgf-full](;GM[1]FF[4]CA[UTF-8]AP[CGoban:3]ST[2]
RU[Japanese]SZ[19]KM[0.00]
GN[]DT[2011-03-24]PC[http://lifein19x19.com/]AW[dd][go][qo][cp][gq]AB[qc][fo][ep][op][pq]C[Diagram from
http://lifein19x19.com/ ]PL[B]
(;B[cn]
(;W[eq]
;B[dq]
;W[dp]
;B[fq]
;W[er]
;B[fr]
;W[dr]
;B[do]C[My first instinct sucks. White can resign.])
(;W[do]
(;B[dn]C[This seems unreasonable for black.]
;W[eo]
;B[en]
;W[fp]
;B[fn]
;W[eq]
;B[gn]
;W[ho]
;B[cf])
(;B[fm]C[Too thin. What else can B do.]
(;W[dn]
;B[cm]
;W[dm]
;B[cl]
;W[fp]
;B[fq]
;W[gp]
;B[eo]
;W[dl]
;B[dk]
;W[ek]
(;B[el]
;W[ck]
;B[dj]
;W[bk]
;B[fk])
(;B[dj]
;W[fl]))
(;W[eq]
(;B[dq]
;W[fp]
;B[eo]
;W[dp]
;B[er]
;W[fq]
;B[cq]
;W[dn]
;B[em]
;W[bq])
(;B[dp]
;W[dq]
;B[co]
;W[bp]
;B[gn]
;W[ho])
(;B[fp]
;W[fq]
;B[dp]
;W[dq]
;B[co]
;W[gp]
;B[gn]
;W[bp])))
(;B[gn]
;W[gp]LB[fn:B][eq:A]C[I think this reverts and spells trouble for black. But white needs to find the right way to use the weak points.]
(;B[dq]
(;W[dn]
;B[fn]
;W[cl]
;B[kp]C[Nice for black.])
(;W[fn]
;B[en]
(;W[fm]
(;B[em]
;W[eo]
;B[fp]
;W[cq])
(;B[eo]
;W[em]
;B[dm]))
(;W[eo]
;B[fm]
;W[fp])))
(;B[hn]
;W[fn]
;B[en]
;W[eo]
;B[fm]
;W[fp]C[I don't mind black. White is a bit bigger than joseki so it's OK.]))
(;B[fn]C[So black might protect one weakness.]
;W[dn]
;B[cm]
;W[dm]
(;B[dl]
;W[cl]
;B[ck]
;W[bl]
(;B[bk]
;W[el]
;B[dk]
;W[co]
;B[bm]
;W[bn]
;B[al]
;W[fm]C[Too good for white.])
(;B[dk]
;W[bk]
;B[bj]
;W[bm]C[Does black have prospects to attack whites two stones?]))
(;B[cl]
;W[dl]
;B[dk]
;W[ek]
;B[dj]
;W[fl]
;B[gn]
;W[ho]
;B[hn]
;W[io]))
(;B[dq]C[The other weakness....]
(;W[fn]
;B[eo]
;W[en]
;B[dn])
(;W[dn]
(;B[dm]
;W[cm]
;B[cl]
;W[bm]
;B[dl]
;W[bl]
;B[bk]
;W[bn]
;B[gn]
;W[ho]
;B[en])
(;B[cm]
;W[dm]
;B[cl]
;W[fn])))))
(;B[gn]LB[ho:B][gp:A]C[Normal joseki. A emphasizes territory. B - the outside.]
(;W[gp]
;B[cn]
;W[eq]C[The connect works in this shape.])
(;W[ho]
;B[cn]
;W[eq]
;B[dq]
;W[dp]
;B[fq]
;W[er]
;B[fr]LB[gp:A]C[So the A point is vital for this to work.])))[/sgf-full]
This is an interesting shape. I feel that white will come out slightly on top but the results are dynamic for both players.
obs:
Re: 105: emerus (3k) vs Mnemonic (8k)
Posted: Thu Mar 24, 2011 3:03 pm
by yoyoma
Re: 105: emerus (3k) vs Mnemonic (8k)
Posted: Thu Mar 24, 2011 3:07 pm
by emerus
Posted: Thu Mar 24, 2011 5:10 pm
by EdLee
Mnemonic:
Mnemonic wrote: The problem is, most of my moves result in an shapeless, eyeless, floating group for black.
What a fantastic motivation to study why
is a joseki move!
$$B
Click Here To Show Diagram Code [go]$$B
Re: 105: emerus (3k) vs Mnemonic (8k)
Posted: Fri Mar 25, 2011 5:34 am
by Shaddy
Re: 105: emerus (3k) vs Mnemonic (8k)
Posted: Fri Mar 25, 2011 7:50 am
by hman
Re: 105: emerus (3k) vs Mnemonic (8k)
Posted: Fri Mar 25, 2011 4:46 pm
by Mnemonic
$$Bcm11 Prisoner Count: B-0 W-0
Click Here To Show Diagram Code [go]$$Bcm11 Prisoner Count: B-0 W-0
$$Bc A wall in gote with W getting 5th line territory?
Click Here To Show Diagram Code [go]$$Bc A wall in gote with W getting 5th line territory?$$Bc This is basicall what I'm planing. Marked exchange obviosly bad for black.\n (Why haven't I thought of that move before?)
Click Here To Show Diagram Code [go]$$Bc This is basicall what I'm planing. Marked exchange obviosly bad for black.\n (Why haven't I thought of that move before?)
It's cool that this is an observed malkovich. Your comments must be pretty good.
is a joseki move!