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Posted: Sun Mar 27, 2011 1:35 am
by EdLee
Redundant,
Redundant wrote: This move seems wrong to me. The aji at a is horrendous.
$$Bm11
Click Here To Show Diagram Code [go]$$Bm11 kosumi is a joseki move, played in at least 21 pro games between 1897 and 2009
(at least 11 pro games between 2001 and 2009).
SmartGo returns zero pro games with
at (a) for this pattern locally and globally.
Re: 108: Puppycakes (3k) vs. mw42 (2k)
Posted: Sun Mar 27, 2011 8:04 am
by mw42
$$Bcm11 Prisoner Count: B-0 W-0
Click Here To Show Diagram Code [go]$$Bcm11 Prisoner Count: B-0 W-0
$$Wcm1
Click Here To Show Diagram Code [go]$$Wcm1As I mentioned before,
is necessary after
to cover the weakness at
. Then the jump at
is the next joseki move. I considered to play tenuki next at
, but the cap at
causes problems for white, I think. Whereas if I finish the joseki with
$$Wcm1
Click Here To Show Diagram Code [go]$$Wcm1Now the pincer looks possible because I think
is difficult to hand for black if he caps.
Re:
Posted: Sun Mar 27, 2011 9:51 am
by Redundant
EdLee wrote: Redundant,
Redundant wrote: This move seems wrong to me. The aji at a is horrendous.
$$Bm11
Click Here To Show Diagram Code [go]$$Bm11 kosumi is a joseki move, played in at least 21 pro games between 1897 and 2009
(at least 11 pro games between 2001 and 2009).
SmartGo returns zero pro games with
at (a) for this pattern locally and globally.
Re: 108: Puppycakes (3k) vs. mw42 (2k)
Posted: Sun Mar 27, 2011 10:02 am
by Puppycakes
$$Bcm21 Prisoner Count: B-0 W-0
Click Here To Show Diagram Code [go]$$Bcm21 Prisoner Count: B-0 W-0
My first inclination is to jump out lightly with this stone and to worry about this area later. I want sente to play here.
$$Bcm1 Prisoner Count: B-0 W-0
Click Here To Show Diagram Code [go]$$Bcm1 Prisoner Count: B-0 W-0I'm not sure that move is sente though because I can't capture
in this sequence.
$$Bcm1 Prisoner Count: B-0 W-0
Click Here To Show Diagram Code [go]$$Bcm1 Prisoner Count: B-0 W-0A play that protects that cut comes to mind. For example, the heavy move of just pulling out.
$$Bcm1 Prisoner Count: B-0 W-0
Click Here To Show Diagram Code [go]$$Bcm1 Prisoner Count: B-0 W-0Unfortunately, I must play something like 3. I don't care much for how heavy this is.
The other play that protects the cut that looks good to me is this one. But I don't like allowing
$$Bcm1 Prisoner Count: B-0 W-0
Click Here To Show Diagram Code [go]$$Bcm1 Prisoner Count: B-0 W-0I suppose that I could tenuki, but then I probably shouldn't have played that stone in the first place and just let white protect the weakness. I like the first option that I considered. I don't see a good way to absolutely guarantee that I get sente. And I think that having a good light group here is valuable to me.
Re: 108: Puppycakes (3k) vs. mw42 (2k)
Posted: Sun Mar 27, 2011 10:12 am
by mw42
$$Bcm21 Prisoner Count: B-0 W-0
Click Here To Show Diagram Code [go]$$Bcm21 Prisoner Count: B-0 W-0
Re: 108: Puppycakes (3k) vs. mw42 (2k)
Posted: Sun Mar 27, 2011 10:59 am
by Puppycakes
$$Bcm21 Prisoner Count: B-0 W-0
Click Here To Show Diagram Code [go]$$Bcm21 Prisoner Count: B-0 W-0Good to see that people are commenting the game.
Re: 108: Puppycakes (3k) vs. mw42 (2k)
Posted: Sun Mar 27, 2011 11:23 am
by mw42
$$Bcm21 Prisoner Count: B-0 W-0
Click Here To Show Diagram Code [go]$$Bcm21 Prisoner Count: B-0 W-0
$$Bcm21
Click Here To Show Diagram Code [go]$$Bcm21 This seems the biggest to me right now. His left side is getting large, but it will be too easy for him to make nice profit from the attack if I invade directly, I think. So my plan is too approach his left side with
with the aim to invade later. I think (a) is slow, perhaps (b) is the largest right now. If B(b) then I will two-space high pincer as mentioned before.
Re: 108: Puppycakes (3k) vs. mw42 (2k)
Posted: Sun Mar 27, 2011 11:38 am
by Puppycakes
$$Bcm21 Prisoner Count: B-0 W-0
Click Here To Show Diagram Code [go]$$Bcm21 Prisoner Count: B-0 W-0
Re: 108: Puppycakes (3k) vs. mw42 (2k)
Posted: Sun Mar 27, 2011 12:53 pm
by mw42
$$Bcm21 Prisoner Count: B-0 W-0
Click Here To Show Diagram Code [go]$$Bcm21 Prisoner Count: B-0 W-0
$$Bcm21
Click Here To Show Diagram Code [go]$$Bcm21 Because of
I am stronger in this area so it makes sense to hassle black's stone. I'm not really familiar with joseki here, but I imagine the sequence B(a)->W(f) might be typical. However, this looks nice for white so black will probably try to do something more. If B(a) W(b) B(f) then white definitely has the upper hand in this fight, but it will get complicated.
Re: 108: Puppycakes (3k) vs. mw42 (2k)
Posted: Sun Mar 27, 2011 1:50 pm
by Puppycakes
$$Bcm21 Prisoner Count: B-0 W-0
Click Here To Show Diagram Code [go]$$Bcm21 Prisoner Count: B-0 W-0
I didn't know the joseki in the upper right corner in that I've never actually studied it, but I had seen people play it. I really don't know this joseki at all. Three moves jump into my mind.
$$Bcm1 Prisoner Count: B-0 W-0
Click Here To Show Diagram Code [go]$$Bcm1 Prisoner Count: B-0 W-0All of them have something in common. They all keep white from sealing black in and they separate white's stones. a attaches to the stone on the bottom and strengthens both sets of stones. I think something like this should happen:
$$Bcm1 Prisoner Count: B-0 W-0
Click Here To Show Diagram Code [go]$$Bcm1 Prisoner Count: B-0 W-0White does develop nicely on both sides, but maybe this is ok because black didn't get pushed down.
With b something like this happens:
$$Bcm1 Prisoner Count: B-0 W-0
Click Here To Show Diagram Code [go]$$Bcm1 Prisoner Count: B-0 W-0And this looks really nice for white.
So how about not touching any of white's stones?
$$Bcm1 Prisoner Count: B-0 W-0
Click Here To Show Diagram Code [go]$$Bcm1 Prisoner Count: B-0 W-0Maybe something like this will happen?
I decided after all that I like attaching on the bottom the best.
Re: 108: Puppycakes (3k) vs. mw42 (2k)
Posted: Sun Mar 27, 2011 2:47 pm
by mw42
$$Bcm21 Prisoner Count: B-0 W-0
Click Here To Show Diagram Code [go]$$Bcm21 Prisoner Count: B-0 W-0Trigger Suggestion:
$$Bcm21 Prisoner Count: B-0 W-0
Click Here To Show Diagram Code [go]$$Bcm21 Prisoner Count: B-0 W-0
$$Bcm21 Prisoner Count: B-0 W-0
Click Here To Show Diagram Code [go]$$Bcm21 Prisoner Count: B-0 W-0Assuming he accepts the trigger, his next move will probably be at (a) then I will play at either (b) (probably the fourth line since
are low). There is some aji in the (c) area, but it would be too slow to worry about it right now. I'm not sure what his next move will be, if B(d) then W(e) but this is not a good exchange for black. I'll expect the fight at (c).
Re: 108: Puppycakes (3k) vs. mw42 (2k)
Posted: Sun Mar 27, 2011 2:55 pm
by Puppycakes
$$Bcm31 Prisoner Count: B-0 W-0
Click Here To Show Diagram Code [go]$$Bcm31 Prisoner Count: B-0 W-0
Re: 108: Puppycakes (3k) vs. mw42 (2k)
Posted: Sun Mar 27, 2011 2:58 pm
by mw42
$$Bcm31 Prisoner Count: B-0 W-0
Click Here To Show Diagram Code [go]$$Bcm31 Prisoner Count: B-0 W-0
Re: 108: Puppycakes (3k) vs. mw42 (2k)
Posted: Mon Mar 28, 2011 10:44 am
by Puppycakes
$$Bcm31 Prisoner Count: B-0 W-0
Click Here To Show Diagram Code [go]$$Bcm31 Prisoner Count: B-0 W-0
Right now, my cutting point is protected:
$$Wcm1 Prisoner Count: B-0 W-0
Click Here To Show Diagram Code [go]$$Wcm1 Prisoner Count: B-0 W-0But white still has some moves that can take my base:
$$Wcm1 Prisoner Count: B-0 W-0
Click Here To Show Diagram Code [go]$$Wcm1 Prisoner Count: B-0 W-0Despite weakening his stone, I think that giving white such a huge corner is a local loss for black.
So I'd play like this:
$$Wcm1 Prisoner Count: B-0 W-0
Click Here To Show Diagram Code [go]$$Wcm1 Prisoner Count: B-0 W-0But then black has no base.
So instead I play this move first:
Which doesn't allow white to play
$$Bcm1 Prisoner Count: B-0 W-0
Click Here To Show Diagram Code [go]$$Bcm1 Prisoner Count: B-0 W-0This is what I anticipate happening.
$$Bcm31 Prisoner Count: B-0 W-0
Click Here To Show Diagram Code [go]$$Bcm31 Prisoner Count: B-0 W-0I'd love to get sente out of this, but then I just create a very weak group that has accomplished little.
Re: 108: Puppycakes (3k) vs. mw42 (2k)
Posted: Mon Mar 28, 2011 12:02 pm
by mw42
$$Bcm31 Prisoner Count: B-0 W-0
Click Here To Show Diagram Code [go]$$Bcm31 Prisoner Count: B-0 W-0
$$Bcm31
Click Here To Show Diagram Code [go]$$Bcm31 It is hard for me to find a good move here. The basic moves at (a), (b) and (c) all seem a bit slow. I thought about (d) then if B(e) I'd tenuki at (f) and then let the fight at (a) happen. I dismissed it, though, because (d) is already hit at the head so I figured more than likely I'd end up having liberty problems somewhere in the fight. I thought about tenuki at (f) immediately, but the resulting fight is poor for me. I settled with (g) as a sort of compromise. I'm not sure how good it is.
kosumi is a joseki move, played in at least 21 pro games between 1897 and 2009
at (a) for this pattern locally and globally.
is necessary after 
to cover the weakness at 
. Then the jump at 
is the next joseki move. I considered to play tenuki next at 
, but the cap at 
causes problems for white, I think. Whereas if I finish the joseki with 
is difficult to hand for black if he caps.
in this sequence. 
with the aim to invade later. I think (a) is slow, perhaps (b) is the largest right now. If B(b) then I will two-space high pincer as mentioned before.
I am stronger in this area so it makes sense to hassle black's stone. I'm not really familiar with joseki here, but I imagine the sequence B(a)->W(f) might be typical. However, this looks nice for white so black will probably try to do something more. If B(a) W(b) B(f) then white definitely has the upper hand in this fight, but it will get complicated.