Life In 19x19

Posted: **Fri May 13, 2011 2:17 pm**

Kirby wrote:
Bill Spight wrote:Why am I seeing no diagrams in this thread?

What web browser are you using? If there's a problem with the diagrams, I can investigate it, provided I can reproduce the issue.

Thanks, Kirby!

Local problem solved.

Posted: **Fri May 13, 2011 9:01 pm**

Kirby wrote:I think the others are correct that you should try to avoid the situation in the first place. But if you did get into the situation, I think that Araban's answer is good:...

But at least you've cut him off from going "further south":
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$$ | . . . . X O . . . . O . . . . . . 5 3 |
$$ | . . . . X O O . . . . . . . . . . . . |
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Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W $$ ------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . X X X . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . X X X X O O O X X X X | $$ | . . . . . . . X O O O O . O . O O O X | $$ | . . . . . . X O . . . . . . O . . . . | $$ | . . . . . X O . O . . . . . . . . . X | $$ | . . . , . X O . . , . . . . . , . . 4 | $$ | . . . . X O O . . . . . . . O . . 1 2 | $$ | . . . . X O . . . . O . . . . . . 5 3 | $$ | . . . . X O O . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ --------------------------------------[/go]

...

I'm not sure that even Araban's defense is adequate, at least not from the most recent diagram:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bc $$ ------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . X X X . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . X X X X O O O X X X X | $$ | . . . . . . . X O O O O . O . O O O X | $$ | . . . . . . X O . . . . . . O . . 2 3 | $$ | . . . . . X O . O . . . . . . . 1 4 X | $$ | . . . , . X O . . , . . . . . 8 6 5 X | $$ | . . . . X O O . . . . . . . O . 7 O X | $$ | . . . . X O . . . . O . . . . . 9 O O | $$ | . . . . X O O . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ --------------------------------------[/go]

My current favorite for minimizing loss is this:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$W $$ ------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . X X X . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . X X X X O O O X X X X | $$ | . . . . . . . X O O O O . O . O O O X | $$ | . . . . . . X O . . . . . . O . . 1 2 | $$ | . . . . . X O . O . . . . . . . 7 6 X | $$ | . . . , . X O . . , . . . . . , . 3 4 | $$ | . . . . X O O . . . . . . . O . . 5 8 | $$ | . . . . X O . . . . O . . . . . . 9 0 | $$ | . . . . X O O . . . . . . . . . . a . | $$ --------------------------------------[/go]

Can anyone else do better?

Note to OP: I think that Kirby's "back up until you can build a defence" theory does have merit, even if it does not generate optimal play in this particular situation.

Posted: **Fri May 13, 2011 9:51 pm**

Joaz Banbeck wrote:
Kirby wrote:I think the others are correct that you should try to avoid the situation in the first place. But if you did get into the situation, I think that Araban's answer is good:...

But at least you've cut him off from going "further south":
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$$ | . . . . . X O . O . . . . . . . . . X |
$$ | . . . , . X O . . , . . . . . , . . 4 |
$$ | . . . . X O O . . . . . . . O . . 1 2 |
$$ | . . . . X O . . . . O . . . . . . 5 3 |
$$ | . . . . X O O . . . . . . . . . . . . |
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Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W $$ ------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . X X X . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . X X X X O O O X X X X | $$ | . . . . . . . X O O O O . O . O O O X | $$ | . . . . . . X O . . . . . . O . . . . | $$ | . . . . . X O . O . . . . . . . . . X | $$ | . . . , . X O . . , . . . . . , . . 4 | $$ | . . . . X O O . . . . . . . O . . 1 2 | $$ | . . . . X O . . . . O . . . . . . 5 3 | $$ | . . . . X O O . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ --------------------------------------[/go]

...

I'm not sure that even Araban's defense is adequate, at least not from the most recent diagram:

$$Bc
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$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . X X X . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . X X X X O O O X X X X |
$$ | . . . . . . . X O O O O . O . O O O X |
$$ | . . . . . . X O . . . . . . O . . 2 3 |
$$ | . . . . . X O . O . . . . . . . 1 4 X |
$$ | . . . , . X O . . , . . . . . 8 6 5 X |
$$ | . . . . X O O . . . . . . . O . 7 O X |
$$ | . . . . X O . . . . O . . . . . 9 O O |
$$ | . . . . X O O . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ --------------------------------------

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc $$ ------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . X X X . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . X X X X O O O X X X X | $$ | . . . . . . . X O O O O . O . O O O X | $$ | . . . . . . X O . . . . . . O . . 2 3 | $$ | . . . . . X O . O . . . . . . . 1 4 X | $$ | . . . , . X O . . , . . . . . 8 6 5 X | $$ | . . . . X O O . . . . . . . O . 7 O X | $$ | . . . . X O . . . . O . . . . . 9 O O | $$ | . . . . X O O . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ --------------------------------------[/go]

My current favorite for minimizing loss is this:

$$W
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$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . X X X . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . X X X X O O O X X X X |
$$ | . . . . . . . X O O O O . O . O O O X |
$$ | . . . . . . X O . . . . . . O . . 1 2 |
$$ | . . . . . X O . O . . . . . . . 7 6 X |
$$ | . . . , . X O . . , . . . . . , . 3 4 |
$$ | . . . . X O O . . . . . . . O . . 5 8 |
$$ | . . . . X O . . . . O . . . . . . 9 0 |
$$ | . . . . X O O . . . . . . . . . . a . |
$$ --------------------------------------

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W $$ ------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . X X X . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . X X X X O O O X X X X | $$ | . . . . . . . X O O O O . O . O O O X | $$ | . . . . . . X O . . . . . . O . . 1 2 | $$ | . . . . . X O . O . . . . . . . 7 6 X | $$ | . . . , . X O . . , . . . . . , . 3 4 | $$ | . . . . X O O . . . . . . . O . . 5 8 | $$ | . . . . X O . . . . O . . . . . . 9 0 | $$ | . . . . X O O . . . . . . . . . . a . | $$ --------------------------------------[/go]

Can anyone else do better?

Note to OP: I think that Kirby's "back up until you can build a defence" theory does have merit, even if it does not generate optimal play in this particular situation.

Don't think yours is not any better:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$W $$ ------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . X X X . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . X X X X O O O X X X X | $$ | . . . . . . . X O O O O . O . O O O X | $$ | . . . . . . X O . . . . . . O . . 5 6 | $$ | . . . . . X O . O . . . . . . . 9 8 X | $$ | . . . , . X O . . , . . . . . , . 3 4 | $$ | . . . . X O O . . . . . . . O . . 1 2 | $$ | . . . . X O . . . . O . . . . . . 7 0 | $$ | . . . . X O O . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ --------------------------------------[/go]

Posted: **Sat May 14, 2011 5:29 am**

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$W $$ ------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . X X X . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . X X X X O O O X X X X | $$ | . . . . . . . X O O O O . O . O O O X | $$ | . . . . . . X O . . . . . . O . . . . | $$ | . . . . . X O . O . . . . . . . . . X | $$ | . . . , . X O . . , . . . . . , . . 4 | $$ | . . . . X O O . . . . . . . O . . 1 2 | $$ | . . . . X O . . . . O . . . . . 5 . 3 | $$ | . . . . X O O . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ --------------------------------------[/go]

How about this?

Posted: **Sat May 14, 2011 7:48 am**

I think that the :w1:

that is found by incrementally moving back is correct, but maybe my followup defense gave black some extra points (though, I would not try to cut off the stone as in Joaz's variation, as it loses the stones). I didn't really think much about that part.

I like Dusk Eagle's followup to :w1:

the best if we can get to that end position, as it looks like it leaves white with the most points.

However, black might do this:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$W $$ ------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . X X X . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . X X X X O O O X X X X | $$ | . . . . . . . X O O O O . O . O O O X | $$ | . . . . . . X O . . . . . . O . . . . | $$ | . . . . . X O . O . . . . . . . . . X | $$ | . . . , . X O . . , . . . . . , . 4 . | $$ | . . . . X O O . . . . . . . O . . 1 2 | $$ | . . . . X O . . . . O . . . . . . . 3 | $$ | . . . . X O O . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ --------------------------------------[/go]

So if you don't like this, maybe you can simply go with Araban's followup.

Either way, I think that the :w1:

found by moving incrementally back will work in this situation.

Posted: **Sat May 14, 2011 4:04 pm**

Unless I'm missing something (not hard to do at my level!), it looks like White is getting to play two moves elsewhere while Black is sneaking in, and loses only 10 or 12 points as a result, assuming he doesn't really screw it up.

Wouldn't that generally be a good trade, except for fairly near the end of the game?

Paul

Posted: **Sat May 14, 2011 4:51 pm**

yawnguy wrote:Unless I'm missing something (not hard to do at my level!), it looks like White is getting to play two moves elsewhere while Black is sneaking in, and loses only 10 or 12 points as a result, assuming he doesn't really screw it up.

Wouldn't that generally be a good trade, except for fairly near the end of the game?...

It is not quite that simple, for black destroys 10-12 points and then exits with sente, so white really only gets one uncontested move elsewhere.

But, yes, generally early in the game ignoring the invasion would be good, whereas late in the game the best play is to prevent it.

Life In 19x19

How to respond to this attack?

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Re: How to respond to this attack?

Re: How to respond to this attack?

Re: How to respond to this attack?