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Re: 2v2 Malkovich Rengo #2

Posted: Thu May 19, 2011 1:50 am
by perceval
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm9 No prisoners so far
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
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$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
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$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . O . . . . . , . . . |
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$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . O . . . X . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . X . 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


i wonder if loons hates me a little already ...

Edit: unhidden
i so did not picture things going that way. i know very little of those joseki
i think that a,b and tenuki are feasible .
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm7 No prisoners so far
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . O . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . b O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . O . . . X . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . X . a . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

i am tempted to tenuki and just play a big point because i think we can still live in the corner (actually i can't read that i think i remember but i could easily mistake it for a similar position )but i don't know the joseki and i feel If i make a wrong choice a local joseki will probably be a smaller mistake than an inappropriate tenuki
now between a or b no idea of direction of play at all ...mmm i'll try to get closer to our hoshi stone i guess ...
on the other hand we will be pressed on the bottom while W build a wall facing his hoshi. There will still be space to play on the left so that might be ok.
if i play b i am not sure of the consequence of the cut...
mmm yes i am not confortable with b ie:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm9 No prisoners so far
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . O . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 1 W . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 2 3 . O . . . X . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . X . a . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


i don't know how things would proceed from here but a ladder on :wc: in the future wont't work and its too messy for me.. ill stay clear of it


In the end i have not a single shred of idea about direction, so i'll play a because it seems less likely to lead to a gross tactical blunder (less likely but likely anyway), and the hoshi stone might help
i already feel the pressure of rengo after 9 moves :-?[/hide]
Edit: fixed move number from 7 to 9 (insert obvious geek reference)

Posted: Thu May 19, 2011 2:01 am
by EdLee
Loons,
Loons wrote: I am hoping perceval spots one joseki obviously works with K4.
Which one? :)

Re: 2v2 Malkovich Rengo #2

Posted: Thu May 19, 2011 3:31 am
by Loons
There was a glitch in the matrix! And don't be negative, perceval.
This was what I was thinking of. 5-4s are wily beasts though, we'll have to be careful.

Re: 2v2 Malkovich Rengo #2

Posted: Thu May 19, 2011 4:41 am
by Mnemonic
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm7 No prisoners so far
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . O . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . O . . . X . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . X . X 4 . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Don't worry percival. My partner hates me more :mrgreen:
Sorry, my comments have been a bit scarce, but I don't have a lot of time at the moment and I though a move without comment is better than slowing down the game.
Anyway, they can’t crosscut so I'm playing this move. I was considering the 33 point, but then they could link up with their K4 stone.

Edit: Fixed numbering

Re: 2v2 Malkovich Rengo #2

Posted: Thu May 19, 2011 5:40 am
by mw42
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm1 No prisoners so far
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . O . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . 5 . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . O 2 . . X . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . X 3 X 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . 4 . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

The hane is good if this ladder works. I would have preferred to press at :w2: .

Re: 2v2 Malkovich Rengo #2

Posted: Thu May 19, 2011 7:26 am
by Mnemonic
Guys, somebody messed up the numbering. Fix please :D
I have a bit more time so I think I'll go over some of my previous moves.

Move 2:
Second move Tengen. Is it good? It's not necessarily bad but it definitely throws everything you know about go theory out of the window. But it suits my style since it's fast, influential and unconventional.

Move 6:
Not a lot to say about it. I approached the only asymmetrical corner with an ideal extension from the 44 point. I went high because we have tengen

Move 10:
This might be my first mistake :shock: I thought I read the ladder, but it doesn’t work:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm10 No prisoners so far
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . W B . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . W B B W . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . B W . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . O W . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . W B . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . W B B W . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . B W . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . 5 . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . O 2 7 . X . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . X 3 X 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . 6 4 . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

I think my team member really hates me now Image

Re: 2v2 Malkovich Rengo #2

Posted: Thu May 19, 2011 7:49 am
by perceval
Guys, somebody messed up the numbering. Fix please

done but your post with move 8 has the misnumbering too (should be 10)

Re: 2v2 Malkovich Rengo #2

Posted: Thu May 19, 2011 2:38 pm
by Loons
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm7 No prisoners so far
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . O . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . O 5 . . X . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . X . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Re: 2v2 Malkovich Rengo #2

Posted: Thu May 19, 2011 4:36 pm
by mw42
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm7 No prisoners so far
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . O . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . 6 . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . O X . . X . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . X . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Whether or not Mnemonic knows this joseki, I don't think the next moves are hard to find.

Re: 2v2 Malkovich Rengo #2

Posted: Thu May 19, 2011 4:59 pm
by Mnemonic
Image

Re: 2v2 Malkovich Rengo #2

Posted: Thu May 19, 2011 5:03 pm
by Loons
Hmm, this doesn't really look good at all. I must have been misreading something earlier. Seems my K4 is either hurt or overconcentrated. While white's result seems excellent, we get the first bite at the big opening points, I think, of which I count three.

Edit: I think E4 is what I want to see played, but I don't know if I have good odds on that.
Edit: Or H3. Or a different move. Sorts of moves that run into K4 rather than tengen.

Re: 2v2 Malkovich Rengo #2

Posted: Thu May 19, 2011 5:25 pm
by Mnemonic
Oh man, reading these comments will be epic :mrgreen:

Re: 2v2 Malkovich Rengo #2

Posted: Thu May 19, 2011 5:47 pm
by mw42
Yes, it certainly will.

No, it certainly won't.


EDIT:
Okay, yes it will.

Re: 2v2 Malkovich Rengo #2

Posted: Fri May 20, 2011 1:00 am
by perceval
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm13 No prisoners so far
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . O . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . O B . . X . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . X . X O 1 . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


EDIT: unhidden no idea where this is going
i think i really need to break the ladder on :bc: and in addition it block the right side
i also considered a and b briefly but then the ladder annoys me
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm13 No prisoners so far
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . O . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . b . a . O B . . X . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . X . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


2 ways to go for W (that i can think of):
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm13 No prisoners so far
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . O . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . O X . . X . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . X . X O 1 . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . a 2 b . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


. not sure which of a or b is good so good thing it would be loons' choice
b is natural if it doesnt hurt the left but then W as

Or the atari

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm13
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . O . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . a 6 4 . O X . . X . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . a 5 X 2 X O 1 . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . 7 . 3 . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


seems fair to me.,a is gote endgame so W has sente to play elsewhere? of course it will diverge before that..

Re: 2v2 Malkovich Rengo #2

Posted: Fri May 20, 2011 6:50 am
by Mnemonic
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm13 No prisoners so far
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . O . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . O X . . X . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . X 2 X O X . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

We'll end in gote and Black will get a ponuki but I guess that is the price for my screw-up. The thing is I'm not even sure that we can kill that stone in the corner, but we can at least close it in and keep it small.