127. ez4u vs topazg

EdLee · Post by **EdLee** » Mon Jun 27, 2011 4:42 pm

Kirby, ez4u:

topazg · Post by **topazg** » Tue Jun 28, 2011 1:39 am

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bcm1 Prisoners: $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 5 . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

I wasn't planning on reading yours Dave, and I'm not sure you'll benefit a great deal from reading mine

It's up to you, I'm not too fussed - I think the observers may get better material if we are thinking less about what to give away (or not) to our opponent.

Dum-de-dum, nothing to see here. I'm envisaging a lower approach and the normal Chinese stuff. I got tricked with an interesting joseki the other day, that I'll share to fill the space:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bcm1 Prisoners: $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . 3 . 2 . 6 7 . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . a 1 . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 4 . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 5 . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |[/go]

Here, I figured :b7:

was natural, even though it gives White rather good shape, it felt like settling was too valuable. However, correct play (apparently!) is this:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bcm1 Prisoners: $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . X 5 O 2 O 8 . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . 4 3 1 X 6 . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . 7 . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 9 . . |[/go]

This does look like a considerably better result, but I'm probably not the only one that figured giving White a corner and settling White completely felt a bit generous.

Sorry, just rambling.

ez4u · Post by **ez4u** » Tue Jun 28, 2011 2:19 am

OK, we'll make it closed comment.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bcm1 Prisoners: $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . 6 . . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

In my opinion the giant killer versus the Chinese is here

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bcm1 Prisoners: $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . a . . 6 . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

The professional experience seems to show a steady, though relatively modest, advantage to White. However, that is just my idea and it does not seem that most of the professional world agrees with me

Black continues to play the Chinese and White continues to explore alternative approaches to handling it. One issue with :w6:

may be that there is a wide range of answers by Black so White is not able to predict how the game will develop from here.

I do not care for :w6:

myself. I am not confident of understanding and handling properly the situations that arise after Black counter pincers around "a". So I chose something else. The play at G3 reduces the possibilities for developing from the bottom right and expects to redirect the action to the top of the board. Let's see what happens.

topazg · Post by **topazg** » Tue Jun 28, 2011 2:50 am

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bcm1 Prisoners: $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . 7 , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . O . . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

As a general opening rule, 4th line stones operate for fast development on the side they're 4th line on (this extends to things like 3-4 stones, hence the side they are normally approached from - it's easy to make a lot of territory on the 4th line if your opponent leaves you alone to do it). Not only that, but a shimari, even loose, _really_ accentuates the importance of the side it faces. So, with a lower left shimari and a top right 4-4, the wedge seems relatively urgent.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bcm1 Prisoners: $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . b . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . d . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . 7 , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . c . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . a . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . O . . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

I rejected "a" because, although it's a really big point I want, it doesn't feel quite as urgent as :b7:

to me. I rejected "b" because I wasn't happy about the development it allows White (something like this:)

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bcm1 Prisoners: $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . 7 . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . 9 . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . 8 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . 0 , a . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . b . . . O . . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

A move like "a" is now fairly urgent, and "b" still lives, but the whole situation feels like it's too easy for White to make points. That said, the approach is big too, and Black's development is fast and large, it just left me feeling uncomfortable. I have a bad feeling about the long knight's aji not being as "open" as my faster looking position, and I can see him cashing a lot more than me out of it.

I rejected "c" and "d" as places mainly through indecisiveness. I want to leave as much aji in the lower left corner as possible. I don't want him to fix the 3-3 invasion in sente, so by playing at :b7:

a possible approach at C8 doesn't look so nice, as the 3-3 lives unconditionally and he'll have to respond to my extension towards the top left. If he approaches from the other side, I extend along the left and he either has to reinforce or has some really awkward aji to clean up later. That's the hope anyway.

EdLee · Post by **EdLee** » Tue Jun 28, 2011 2:56 am

topazg wrote:as urgent as

For beginners: Yes, the big wedge :b7:

is pretty big.

And (a) and (b) are miai for Black to settle, which is very nice and convenient.
See also http://senseis.xmp.net/?Miai

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bm1 $$ ----------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . a . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . 7 , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . b . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . O . . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ -----------------------------------------[/go]

Kirby · Post by **Kirby** » Tue Jun 28, 2011 3:38 am

EdLee wrote:Kirby, ez4u:
Kirby wrote:It is very interesting to think of the idea of trying to think of balance as opposed to advantage.
Though I am usually not very successful in doing so, I typically think purely in terms of trying to obtain an advantage (well, in even games, at least).
This is very natural. Of course, we're all trying to get an advantage with every move.
This is one reason (but certainly not the only one) that many beginners try desperately to kill every one of the opponent's stones.
Then later, we realize that's not the best idea, because our opponent is playing, too, and he/she also wants (and deserves) a piece.
As we improve some more, we find out it gets more and more difficult to get any advantage,
because our opponents are also improving, until you get to these people's 6d+ to pro levels
and it's super difficult to get any advantage because now the opponent is very good.
So balance is a very natural progression.

EdLee · Post by **EdLee** » Tue Jun 28, 2011 3:53 am

Kirby,

ez4u · Post by **ez4u** » Tue Jun 28, 2011 6:12 am

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bcm1 Prisoners: $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . 8 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . O . . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

So Black splits the left side. This is one choice. The other would have been to deal with the top. Which to choose? Both have been played by the pros.

Consider this situation compared to the game...

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bcm1 Prisoners: $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . a . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . W . . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . W. . . . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Here White has a traditional 3-4 based shimari in the lower left. How does this affect the left side? In both cases the left side looks equally "big". However, I would propose that here the left side is more "urgent" than in the game. Why? If Black plays elsewhere and White encloses the left side with a play around "a", the stronger hold on the lower left corner here leaves fewer opportunities for Black to invade and reduce the side. In the game, the remaining weaknesses in the lower left corner make a White enclosure of the side less complete, less valuable, let's say less urgent. (see topazg's new thread on big versus urgent here)

Relatively speaking, I would say that the upper side is more urgent in the game than it is here. However, that is a relative judgment and it is not the same as saying that the upper side is absolutely more important than the left. I am aiming to push Black around on the left a bit, but also to try to play first on the upper side.

topazg · Post by **topazg** » Tue Jun 28, 2011 6:37 am

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bcm1 Prisoners: $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . 9 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . O . . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

This is something I've seen a few times in professional games. If White jumps inside, I can play for thickness and leave the aji in the lower left corner. If White looks after the corner, I get stronger shape than with a two point jump. Compare:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bcm9 Prisoners: $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . 5 4 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . 1 . 3 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . 2 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . O . . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

with:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bcm9 Prisoners: $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . 3 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . 2 O . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . O . . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

and:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bcm9 Prisoners: $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . 4 5 . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . 3 2 7 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . 6 8 9 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . 0 1 a . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . a . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . O . . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Haven't decided where to put :b19:

yet.

Some very different games lead from the last two, but I prefer both to the diagram with the "simple" two space jump. I could be wrong though.

ADDENDUM:

Part of the reason why I opted to allow White to secure his corner in the lower left is that he's now left open a sente (for me) invasion of the top left instead, so I'm equally happy with my ability to get compensation. Ironically, that sequence (first var) gives him sente, and taking the top edge is simply huge now. I envisage something like this:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bcm9 Prisoners: $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . a e . . . . . 4 . . . 5 . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . , b . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . b . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . d . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 9 . X . . | $$ | . . . 3 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . 1 . c . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 7 . . . | $$ | . . 2 O . . . . . , 8 . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . O . . . . . 6 . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Still aiming for moves around "a", "b" and "c", but White is probably going to aim at moves like "d" and "e". It could get complicated

ez4u · Post by **ez4u** » Tue Jun 28, 2011 6:43 am

Kirby wrote:
EdLee wrote:Kirby, ez4u:
Kirby wrote:It is very interesting to think of the idea of trying to think of balance as opposed to advantage.
Though I am usually not very successful in doing so, I typically think purely in terms of trying to obtain an advantage (well, in even games, at least).
This is very natural. Of course, we're all trying to get an advantage with every move.
This is one reason (but certainly not the only one) that many beginners try desperately to kill every one of the opponent's stones.
Then later, we realize that's not the best idea, because our opponent is playing, too, and he/she also wants (and deserves) a piece.
As we improve some more, we find out it gets more and more difficult to get any advantage,
because our opponents are also improving, until you get to these people's 6d+ to pro levels
and it's super difficult to get any advantage because now the opponent is very good.
So balance is a very natural progression.

Do you make an effort to play a move that is not seeking an advantage, but is balanced? How do you get out of the mindset of trying to get an advantage?

topazg · Post by **topazg** » Tue Jun 28, 2011 7:15 am

Another possibility:

Also considering this one:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bcm9 Prisoners: $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . 4 . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . , 5 . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . 6 . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 7 . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . 3 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . 2 O . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . O . . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bcm9 Prisoners: $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . 4 . 7 6 . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . , 5 . . . . X 8 . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 9 . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . 3 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . 2 O . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . O . . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Wow, so many results I can't predict already. Go is rather fun.

Kirby · Post by **Kirby** » Tue Jun 28, 2011 7:36 am

ez4u wrote:...

The key point is that the type of "balance" that I am thinking about IS an advantage. Unfortunately "balance" has a general meaning that is not Go related. As a result we can be confused by connotations leaking over into our Go discussions. Choose the right "balance" for what you are trying to achieve! Again, my current "vivid" image for balance is that of a fighter: weight centered, facing the opponent, ready to move naturally forward or back, and to apply force where ever needed. It is the opposite of seeking a balanced result with the opponent. The difference between seeking advantage and seeking balance is more the idea of appropriate restraint. Do not seek to grasp as much as possible with each play. That can throw us off balance and leave us over-exposed to counter attacks by the opponent.

Needless to say this is easy describe in abstract terms, but much less easy to do faced with a real opponent who is equally intent on winning.

Kirby · Post by **Kirby** » Tue Jun 28, 2011 7:39 am

Kirby wrote:
ez4u wrote:...

The key point is that the type of "balance" that I am thinking about IS an advantage. Unfortunately "balance" has a general meaning that is not Go related. As a result we can be confused by connotations leaking over into our Go discussions. Choose the right "balance" for what you are trying to achieve! Again, my current "vivid" image for balance is that of a fighter: weight centered, facing the opponent, ready to move naturally forward or back, and to apply force where ever needed. It is the opposite of seeking a balanced result with the opponent. The difference between seeking advantage and seeking balance is more the idea of appropriate restraint. Do not seek to grasp as much as possible with each play. That can throw us off balance and leave us over-exposed to counter attacks by the opponent.

Needless to say this is easy describe in abstract terms, but much less easy to do faced with a real opponent who is equally intent on winning.

I know you mentioned the fighter analogy earlier, but maybe it didn't sink in with me as much when you said it the first time.

I kind of like this idea of balance.

We just bought a Wii last week, and this discussion reminds me a little bit of the sword fighting game that they have on the one game, I think it's called "Wii Sports Resort" or something.

Anyway, if I just go all out and try to whack my wife off of the platform, I get thrown off balance, and she can counterattack.

Instead, if I hold a defensive position and she goes to attack, her balance is thrown off, and I get the opportunity to whack her off of the platform.

It gets more interesting when both players realize this strategy. Then, in order to win I have to start whacking to feign an opening, but then draw back and defend. When she attacks the opening, I am blocking, so then she gets thrown off balance, and I have an opening to attack.

Anyway, it sounds interesting to apply this to go. Maybe if I go directly toward "whacking" my opponent, there will be a weakness in my shape that can be attacked at a later point in the game. Perhaps it's better to keep a balance, waiting for my opponent's weakness, and then "whack" that weakness until he falls off of the platform... :-p

It's kind of a fun analogy. I will try thinking about this when I play another game later today (of go, not Wii Sports Resort).

ez4u · Post by **ez4u** » Tue Jun 28, 2011 7:48 am

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bcm1 Prisoners: $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . 0 . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . O . . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

In a sense I think this contradicts what I wrote before about pursuing a balanced position for White. :scratch:

However, the normal next step on the left is for White to invade into the Black extension. This can lead to several major variations but most of the time White will split or simply give up the bottom left corner. In this case I would like to know how Black reacts in the upper right before choosing a path in the bottom left.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wc $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . 2 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . O . . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Note that if Black ignores the play in the upper right, we revert to something like this, where Black splits the ni-ren-sei...

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wc $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1 . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . 3 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . 2 , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . 8 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . 4 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . 6 . O . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . 7 . . . 5 . . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Here

would be a typical continuation along the left. White might simply play :w7:

, expecting :b8:

and the opportunity to play a second time in the upper right.

Kirby · Post by **Kirby** » Tue Jun 28, 2011 7:48 am

@Observers only:

topazg wrote:
...

If White looks after the corner, I get stronger shape than with a two point jump. Compare:

$$Bcm9 Prisoners:
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . 5 4 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 1 . 3 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 2 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . O . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm9 Prisoners: $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . 5 4 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . 1 . 3 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . 2 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . O . . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

with:

$$Bcm9 Prisoners:
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . 3 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 2 O . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . O . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm9 Prisoners: $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . 3 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . 2 O . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . O . . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

...

[Chew]: fixed your hide tag. Hope you don't mind.

[Kirby]: Thanks. That's no problem. I actually noticed that some stuff I had intended to be hidden was showing right after posting, and I thought that I had fixed it, but as long as everything's hidden now, I'm satisfied.

Life In 19x19

127. ez4u vs topazg

Re: 127. ez4u vs topazg

Re: 127. ez4u vs topazg

Re: 127. ez4u vs topazg

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Re: 127. ez4u vs topazg

Re: 127. ez4u vs topazg

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Re: 127. ez4u vs topazg

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Re: 127. ez4u vs topazg

Re: 127. ez4u vs topazg