(*P4 is a good option to continue when your opponent is really delaying entering your Chinese sometimes.) The "opening" presumably starts on top, where black should concentrate on playing naturally, with a peaceful (ie settling) bent in non-submissive options. Not those "special" black-in-high-handicap tactics. Black should be able to adhere to normal Chinese fuseki decisions for a long time. I thought about the marked stones at the marked points, but I like this more.
Oh, a high microchinese on the left and the top star point could be cool. Another option worth considering is a small knight's enclosure top right.
Re: Best place for handicap stones
Posted: Sat Jul 23, 2011 5:34 pm
by jts
BobC wrote:I think he'd be pretty lucky to live inside (famous last words) ...
The point isn't that living inside is unlikely; it's that you're so overconcentrated, if he tries to live and fails, he hasn't lost anything. Living is unlikely, but worth nearly as many points as your corner is worth to begin with. Huge reward, no downside. It's like a stock option, if you understand how those work.
Re: Best place for handicap stones
Posted: Sat Jul 23, 2011 6:10 pm
by Loons
My order of preference, and take (just by eyeballing them):
1) Topazg's. I think it beats mine, though I never understand why topazg suggests R9 extension from bottom right enclosure in a vacuum (feel free to explain ).
2) Mine. I suggested it because I thought it was good, and it lets you borrow from Chinese walkthroughs. Maybe I'm forgetting an eight rank difference is a lot.
3) Dusk Eagle's. I feel like this is probably the gold standard (as opposed to normal..). Handling undeveloped shimari against a stronger player might be a bumpy start.
4) Araban's. While surely you have taken all the easy points on the board and are at gross advantage in running fights, I am afraid of becoming low/flat/slow while trying to develop. It may be I just can't see the good plan.
5) Illuck's. Not far behind Araban's. "Side before centre" is the proverb, but fighting starting near the one stone corners may become hard.
6) Koroviev's. Starting without cash and without concrete development is a bit scary. Surely fun fighting will ensue, though. Which I guess is the point.
7) BobC's. Surely formidable, and I might still take it over normal placement. My concern is, actively using that thick formation seems to ask you to out-local-tactic a much stronger player in big empty areas.
topazg wrote:How can you lose with 8 stones full stop?
Oh I can manage to lose even with nine stones. Depends on who is playing white. There are some rather strong players at my local go club (Western Mass).
Someting important is being left out of this. Not only what might be best for black in terms of winning this game but best in terms of learning to improve (make use of existing influence, avoid passive play, etc.
Re: Best place for handicap stones
Posted: Sun Jul 24, 2011 8:22 am
by BobC
I think Mikes caught on here... Much of it was about seeing what I can get from the influence. I'm intending to fight for the corners and live small - then hopefully not give him to much thickness then make a stab at any framework he starts to builds or drive a small group into the wall.. well thats the plan.....
Re: Best place for handicap stones
Posted: Sun Jul 24, 2011 8:59 am
by Dusk Eagle
Mike Novack wrote:Something important is being left out of this. Not only what might be best for black in terms of winning this game but best in terms of learning to improve (make use of existing influence, avoid passive play, etc.
In this case I think the normal star-point method of placing handicap stones is very good. It gives black a huge advantage, while not starting him out with any solid territory. This means black still has to be somewhat active in order for these stones to be fully utilized. Black gets a great opportunity to learn to use influence, make territory while attacking, etc.
Sorry, BobC, but I think your suggested layout is proof that you need to play some more with this layout.
Staking out some points and then spending the rest of the game defending what you've already got is a path to certain defeat. You cannot win this game playing moves that *only* make points.
Re: Best place for handicap stones
Posted: Sun Jul 24, 2011 1:47 pm
by Hushfield
Redundant wrote:
BobC wrote:[...] A ponuki in the centre is worth 12 points... (got to add that to the other 30 points...)
The proverb is that a ponnuki in the center is worth 30 points. The corners are just gravy.
Interestingly enough, Jennie Shen's KGS Plus lecture tonight was about the value of a ponnuki in the center. She then went on to say that the proverb is just a way of saying that the value of such a position is very big. It's not really worth 30 points, but she didn't want to put an exact value on it. The way she proposed to judge the value of a ponnuki was to examine the wholeboard position with or without the ponnuki. The difference in her examples was staggering. Don't follow proverbs blindly. I noticed I did just that, when folllowing this thread, and going "Myes, myes of course, everybody knows that it's worth 30 points", and actually believed the numeric value.
Concerning the question posed in the original post, I agree with DuskEagle and Daniel that the standard position of the 8 handicap stones are best, because they require you to play actively and make territory that way. It's the best way to learn how to gain territory through attacking, which is a skill you'll want to acquire if you ever want to play your 8-stone opponent in an even game. You don't win handicap games through defending, only through attacking. And the (high position of the) star points on the board are the ideal support for fighting.
Re: Best place for handicap stones
Posted: Sun Jul 24, 2011 3:17 pm
by Li Kao
I don't think the standard position is best for learning. You only learn the 4-4 sequences, and none of the others. You should mix it up with at least 4-3.
Re: Best place for handicap stones
Posted: Sun Jul 24, 2011 4:41 pm
by daniel_the_smith
Li Kao wrote:I don't think the standard position is best for learning. You only learn the 4-4 sequences, and none of the others. You should mix it up with at least 4-3.
I didn't mean to imply that the standard position was best--practice with 3-4 points can only be good. My (probably unclear) point was more that the original position given has a major efficiency problem (it's like a 5 stone handicap using 8 stones) which the standard placement does not have...
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