140. Loons 1d vs Daal 6k, 4H

Bill Spight · Post by **Bill Spight** » Tue Oct 04, 2011 9:02 am

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wcm1 $$ +---------------------------------------+ $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . O . . . . O . . . . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O a . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . b d . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . X . c 7 . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]

Black considered "a", "b", and "c". "d" is also playable.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bcm8 Diagonal play $$ +---------------------------------------+ $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . O . . . . O . . . . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . a . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . W . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . 5 9 . 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | 7 4 3 X . . O . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . 8 2 . . 0 . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . 6 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]

at "a".

I like :b8:

. If White now jumps into the corner he has to play :w11:

, which gives :wc:

less aji.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wcm7 $$ +---------------------------------------+ $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . O . . . . O . . . . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . B . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O 2 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . X . . 1 . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]

When I was learning go this jump attachment after a pincer was considered inferior, because it strengthened the weaker White stone. Pro opinion has changed. However, in this case, I think that :w7:

is too far for the resultant Black strength to be effective.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wcm7 $$ +---------------------------------------+ $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . O . . . . O . . . . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . B . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . 9 . 3 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O 2 4 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . 7 6 8 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . 5 X . . 1 . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]

The jump attachment of :w11:

settles White without weakening :w7:

too much.

Loons · Post by **Loons** » Wed Oct 05, 2011 1:19 am

Ha ha, I was wondering if I was going to get called out on calling a slightly slow move at the start of a 4H bad...

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wcm1 $$ +---------------------------------------+ $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . O . . . . O . . . . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O 8 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . X . . O . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . 9 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]

My goal is to create the following dilemma:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wcm1 Warning: May be an assumed overplay $$ +---------------------------------------+ $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . O . . . . O . . . . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . O . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . O X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O X . . O . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]

Black's wall isn't facing the side already with the extension

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wcm1 $$ +---------------------------------------+ $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . O . . . . O . . . . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . X . . O . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]

White's corner is big and out on one side.

Loons · Post by **Loons** » Wed Oct 05, 2011 1:58 am

On more notes:

I felt like this is a potential "fuseki move"

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wcm $$ ----------------------+ $$ . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ O . . . . O . . . . . | $$ . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ . . . . . . . . 5 . . | $$ . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ . . . . . . . 3 1 . . | $$ . . . . . . . . 2 . . | $$ . B . . . 4 . X . . . | $$ . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ----------------------+[/go]

While this is a potential middle game move (and thus less valuable):

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wc $$ ----------------------+ $$ . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ O . . . . O . . . . . | $$ . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ . . . . . . . b 1 . . | $$ . . . . . . . a . . . | $$ . , . . . . . , X . . | $$ . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ . . . . . . . . . . . |[/go]

And further black may be less ideal after a corner invasion:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wc $$ ----------------------+ $$ . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ . . . . . . 4 3 5 . . | $$ O . . . . O 6 2 1 . . | $$ . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ . . . . . . . . 9 7 . | $$ . . . . . . . X 0 8 . | $$ . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ----------------------+[/go]

However, I admittedly did not consider other lines of this corner invasion. Also, I think Bill is right that we're talking a < 1 or 2 point difference here

.

daal · Post by **daal** » Wed Oct 05, 2011 4:16 am

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wcm1 $$ +---------------------------------------+ $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . O . . . . O . . . . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . 0 X . . O . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . 9 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]

As I said in my previous post, I don't want a wall facing his g4 stone, so I didn't really consider any other move here. I envision the continuation up to 9 leaving me wondering whether to play a or b but also sort of itching to play c which feels safer, but wronger.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wcm1 $$ +---------------------------------------+ $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . O . . . . O . . . . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . c a . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O X . . . 8 . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . 6 7 . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X X 2 4 O 9 . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . O 1 3 5 . . . . . . . b . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]

I sometimes sense in myself a strong desire for things (positions on the go board) to make more sense than they do, and I wonder if this might be associated with my age. I mean, I'm old enough to know what to do when a fella approaches my corner, ain't I?

My point is: in a good game, the path to victory is never clear. Many moves are little leaps of faith. We're always relying on something that we're not quite so sure of, be it a principle or our own reading. There might be an objectively correct move in a certain situation, but we're not sitting in that objective seat during our own game, and I wonder if part of go strength is simply the ability to embrace the ambivalence of one's own decisions and to ride the wave.

Loons · Post by **Loons** » Wed Oct 05, 2011 12:36 pm

In a nutshell, by "objectively" I was in fact meaning "very subjectively" (as is the normal use, I believe

).

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bcm10 $$ +---------------------------------------+ $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . O . . . . O . . . . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . 1 X . . O . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . O 2 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]

This looked risky but it seems to me like it is good for white:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bcm10 $$ +---------------------------------------+ $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . O . . . . O . . . . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . 1 X 6 . O . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . 3 O 2 5 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . 4 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]

I did think briefly about:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bcm10 $$ +---------------------------------------+ $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . O . . . . O . . . . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . 7 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . 2 1 X . . O . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . 6 O 3 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . 4 5 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]

But I couldn't find a continuation I really liked after :b12:

Itinerary:
After we finish here, I'd like to-
1) Approach bottom right at O3. I'm not sure for black's joseki. Attach on top, maybe?
2) Approach top left F17. Assuming kick, my existing stone gives me sente.
3) Invade top right, though depending on bottom right joseki, I may have to shoulder hit R11 first, or something.

And then I feel middle game will be well under way.

daal · Post by **daal** » Thu Oct 06, 2011 2:04 am

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bcm10 $$ +---------------------------------------+ $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . O . . . . O . . . . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X X 3 . O . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . O 2 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]

daal wrote:I sometimes sense in myself a strong desire for things (positions on the go board) to make more sense than they do, and I wonder if this might be associated with my age. I mean, I'm old enough to know what to do when a fella approaches my corner, ain't I?

My point is: in a good game, the path to victory is never clear. Many moves are little leaps of faith. We're always relying on something that we're not quite so sure of, be it a principle or our own reading. There might be an objectively correct move in a certain situation, but we're not sitting in that objective seat during our own game, and I wonder if part of go strength is simply the ability to embrace the ambivalence of one's own decisions and to ride the wave.

loons wrote:In a nutshell, by "objectively" I was in fact meaning "very subjectively" (as is the normal use, I believe ).

Um...are you talking to me? I haven't been reading your hidden commentary, so my comment was not in reply to something you said, but rather a thought that arose while thinking about the board position and go in general. I do btw. believe that objectivity exists; just that it doesn't play much of a role during a game.

Loons · Post by **Loons** » Thu Oct 06, 2011 4:44 pm

I was commenting on your comment I construed a comment on Bill's (unhidden) comment on my earlier comment. Clarified?

(I described an opinion of mine as objective, to which your comment on the path to victory not being clear seemed apt).

Anyway!

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bcm10 $$ +---------------------------------------+ $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . O . . . . O . . . . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X X 3 . O . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . O O 4 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]

My local thoughts.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bcm10 Hmm, no sente for me this way. $$ +---------------------------------------+ $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . O . . . . O . . . . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . 7 X X 3 0 O . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . 5 O O 4 9 . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . 6 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bcm10 leaves a destructive move at 'a'? $$ +---------------------------------------+ $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . O . . . . O . . . . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . a . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . 7 X X 3 8 O . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . 5 O O 4 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . 6 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bcm10 Black gets a lot, white gets a lot? Not sure of the timing for W 'a'. $$ +---------------------------------------+ $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . O . . . . O . . . . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O X . . 9 . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . 7 8 . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . a X X 3 5 O 0 . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . O O 4 6 . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bcm10 An example of black not pushing. $$ +---------------------------------------+ $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . O . . . . O . . . . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . 7 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . 5 X X 6 . O . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . 3 O O . 8 . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . 4 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]

daal · Post by **daal** » Fri Oct 07, 2011 12:58 am

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bcm10 $$ +---------------------------------------+ $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . O . . . . O . . . . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X X X 5 O . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . O O 4 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]

A fresh look shows that my previous expectation below was a tad optimistic.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wcm1 $$ +---------------------------------------+ $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . O . . . . O . . . . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O X . . . 8 . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . 6 7 . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X X 2 4 O 9 . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . O 1 3 5 . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]

More likely seems that w will cut before defending, leaving me to want to prevent white a, black b white c instead of deliberating what to do with sente. Or does it?

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bcm1 $$ +---------------------------------------+ $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . O . . . . O . . . . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . c a . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O X . . 2 1 b . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . 3 X O . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X X X X O 4 . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . O O O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]

If I were to allow white to do so - and I am still trying to figure out whether he would want to - I would get a move in beforehand, say at the marked stone, and although my moyo is looking troubled, I can still defend it, say at "a", while attacking his floating group. If he starts running with his group, I might still be able to get a "b" in.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wcm1 $$ +---------------------------------------+ $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . O . . . . O . . . . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . b . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . a . O O . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O X . . O X X . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . X X O . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X X X X O O . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . O O O O . . . . . . . Y . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]

In any case, f4 seems pretty mandatory at this stage.

Time thinking about the sequences: 5 mins. Time messing with the diagrams: 30 mins.

Bill Spight · Post by **Bill Spight** » Fri Oct 07, 2011 7:41 am

daal wrote:My point is: in a good game, the path to victory is never clear. Many moves are little leaps of faith. We're always relying on something that we're not quite so sure of, be it a principle or our own reading. There might be an objectively correct move in a certain situation, but we're not sitting in that objective seat during our own game, and I wonder if part of go strength is simply the ability to embrace the ambivalence of one's own decisions and to ride the wave.

When I was young I learned that one of the concomitants of intelligence is tolerance for ambiguity. I have noted that among go players -- in the West, anyway.

The Santa Fe, NM, go club used to meet on Saturday afternoons and would go as a group to supper. We almost always went to the same place, but would spend up to a half hour deciding where to go. I chalked this inability to reach a quick decision up to tolerance for ambiguity.

Edit: @ Loons: I was not commenting on your comment.

Loons · Post by **Loons** » Fri Oct 07, 2011 4:35 pm

I like the idea of indecision indicating intelligence.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bcm10 $$ +---------------------------------------+ $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . O . . . . O . . . . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X X X 5 O . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . O O O 6 . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]

daal · Post by **daal** » Sat Oct 08, 2011 1:07 am

Me too.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bcm10 $$ +---------------------------------------+ $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . O . . . . O . . . . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . 7 . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X X X X O . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . O O O 6 . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]

Website · Post by **Chew Terr** » Mon Oct 10, 2011 11:39 am

Loons wrote:I like the idea of indecision indicating intelligence.

[obvious joke]Eh, I don't know how I feel about it. [/obvious joke]

gaius · Post by **gaius** » Tue Oct 11, 2011 8:38 am

Daal wrote:My point is: in a good game, the path to victory is never clear. Many moves are little leaps of faith. We're always relying on something that we're not quite so sure of, be it a principle or our own reading. There might be an objectively correct move in a certain situation, but we're not sitting in that objective seat during our own game, and I wonder if part of go strength is simply the ability to embrace the ambivalence of one's own decisions and to ride the wave.

Yes! Ride the wave!

I made it part of my signature

Loons · Post by **Loons** » Fri Oct 14, 2011 1:33 pm

Sorry about the wait.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bcm10 $$ +---------------------------------------+ $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . O . . . . O . . . . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . 7 8 . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X X X X O . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . O O O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]

daal · Post by **daal** » Sat Oct 15, 2011 8:25 am

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bcm10 $$ +---------------------------------------+ $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . O . . . . O . . . . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O X . . . 9 . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . X 8 . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X X X X O . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . O O O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]

Life In 19x19

140. Loons 1d vs Daal 6k, 4H

Re: 140. Loons 1d vs Daal 6k, 4H

Re: 140. Loons 1d vs Daal 6k, 4H

Re: 140. Loons 1d vs Daal 6k, 4H

Re: 140. Loons 1d vs Daal 6k, 4H

Re: 140. Loons 1d vs Daal 6k, 4H

Re: 140. Loons 1d vs Daal 6k, 4H

Re: 140. Loons 1d vs Daal 6k, 4H

Re: 140. Loons 1d vs Daal 6k, 4H

Re: 140. Loons 1d vs Daal 6k, 4H

Re: 140. Loons 1d vs Daal 6k, 4H

Re: 140. Loons 1d vs Daal 6k, 4H

Re: 140. Loons 1d vs Daal 6k, 4H

Re: 140. Loons 1d vs Daal 6k, 4H

Re: 140. Loons 1d vs Daal 6k, 4H

Re: 140. Loons 1d vs Daal 6k, 4H