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Also lost in the endgame? :)

https://www.lifein19x19.com/viewtopic.php?t=4918

Page 2 of 2

Re: Also lost in the endgame? :)

Posted: Mon Oct 31, 2011 3:14 pm
by Bill Spight
Araban wrote:I agree that 40 is bad, but to tenuki is also not good. Instead, I would:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm1
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . 5 . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O X X O X . . . . . . . . . a O . . |
$$ | . X O O O . . . . . . . . . . 3 X 1 . |
$$ | . X X O . O . . . , . . . . . X 4 2 . |
$$ | . . X O O X . . . O . X . . . B . . . |
$$ | . . X X O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Well, if Black obliges with :b2: and :b4:, White has a great result! :bc: has become a ridiculous play. ;) OC, Black is a 5 kyu, so he may oblige. Whoop-de-do! ;)

(For the kibitzers, :b2: would be better at "a". :))

Re: Also lost in the endgame? :)

Posted: Mon Oct 31, 2011 3:34 pm
by Solomon
Bill Spight wrote:Well, if Black obliges with :b2: and :b4:, White has a great result! :bc: has become a ridiculous play. ;) OC, Black is a 5 kyu, so he may oblige. Whoop-de-do! ;)

(For the kibitzers, :b2: would be better at "a". :))
In that case it's still fine for W:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm1
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , d . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O X O . . . . . . . . . . 5 . . |
$$ | . O X X O X . . . . . . . . . 2 O d e |
$$ | . X O O O . . . . . . . . . . 4 X 1 . |
$$ | . X X O . O . . . , . . . . . X 3 a b |
$$ | . . X O O X . . . O . X . . . B . c . |
$$ | . . X X O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

The idea is still the same. Black's wall is useless here. W can give up :w3: with a - c sequence. For B to capture :w1: with 'd' is small, made smaller since the a - c exchange allows White to potentially capture d by ko with 'e' if needed.

Re: Also lost in the endgame? :)

Posted: Mon Oct 31, 2011 5:27 pm
by Bill Spight
Yes, White lost in the endgame.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W Game losing move
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . O O X . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . O . O X X . X X X . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O O O X X . X O O X . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . O O X O O X X X O O X . X . X X |
$$ | . . O X O X X O O O O O . O X X X O X |
$$ | . . O X X X O X X X X O O X X . X O O |
$$ | . . O O . X O X . X O . . O X X X O . |
$$ | . . O X X X O X X O O . O . O X O O . |
$$ | . O X X . X O O X . O O X O O X O X O |
$$ | . . O O X X . X . X X X X O O X O X . |
$$ | . O X O . X . . X . . X O O X X O O O |
$$ | . . X O O O X . . X X O . . O X O X X |
$$ | . O X O . O X . . X O . O O O X X X X |
$$ | 3 O X X O X . X X O O O O . O O O X X |
$$ | 1 X O O O O X . X X X O O O X O O O X |
$$ | 2 X X O . O X X . X . X O X X X O . O |
$$ | . . X O O . O X O O X X X . . X X O . |
$$ | X . X X O . O O . O X . . . . X O X O |
$$ | . . 4 O . O . . . O O X . . . . . X . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


White played :w1: - :b4: with sente. However, :w3: is the game losing move.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W :w3: kills
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . O O X . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . O . O X X . X X X . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O O O X X . X O O X . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . O O X O O X X X O O X . X . X X |
$$ | . . O X O X X O O O O O . O X X X O X |
$$ | . . O X X X O X X X X O O X X . X O O |
$$ | . . O O . X O X . X O . . O X X X O . |
$$ | . . O X X X O X X O O . O . O X O O . |
$$ | . O X X . X O O X . O O X O O X O X O |
$$ | . . O O X X . X . X X X X O O X O X . |
$$ | . O X O . X . . X . . X O O X X O O O |
$$ | . . X O O O X . . X X O . . O X O X X |
$$ | . O X O . O X . . X O . O O O X X X X |
$$ | 6 O X X O X . X X O O O O . O O O X X |
$$ | 1 X O O O O X . X X X O O O X O O O X |
$$ | 2 X X O . O X X . X . X O X X X O . O |
$$ | . 7 X O O . O X O O X X X . . X X O . |
$$ | X 5 X X O . O O . O X . . . . X O X O |
$$ | . 3 4 O . O . . . O O X . . . . . X . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


The right play is the first line jump, :w3:. Black cannot play :b6: at 7 because of damezumari. :w7: forms a 3 point nakade shape to kill. :)

As Takagawa says, The endgame is fighting strength.

Re: Also lost in the endgame? :)

Posted: Mon Oct 31, 2011 5:51 pm
by Bill Spight
Araban wrote:
Bill Spight wrote:Well, if Black obliges with :b2: and :b4:, White has a great result! :bc: has become a ridiculous play. ;) OC, Black is a 5 kyu, so he may oblige. Whoop-de-do! ;)

(For the kibitzers, :b2: would be better at "a". :))
In that case it's still fine for W:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm1
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O X O . . . . . . . . . . 5 . . |
$$ | . O X X O X . . . . . . . . . 2 O d e |
$$ | . X O O O . . . . . . . . . . 4 X 1 . |
$$ | . X X O . O . . . , . . . . . X 3 a b |
$$ | . . X O O X . . . O . B . . . X . c . |
$$ | . . X X O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

The idea is still the same. Black's wall is useless here. W can give up :w3: with a - c sequence. For B to capture :w1: with 'd' is small, made smaller since the a - c exchange allows White to potentially capture d by ko with 'e' if needed.


To be sure, :bc: is too close to Black's wall. However, I do not like :b4:.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm1 Ko -- :b8: takes
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O X O . . . . . . . . . 7 4 . . |
$$ | . O X X O X . . . . . . . . . 2 O . . |
$$ | . X O O O . . . . . . . . . 6 5 X 1 . |
$$ | . X X O . O . . . , . . . . . X 3 . . |
$$ | . . X O O X . . . O . X . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . X X O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


I think that this ko is quite playable for Black. :)

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm1
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , 4 . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O X O . . . . . . . . . . 3 . . |
$$ | . O X X O X . . . . . . . . . 2 O . . |
$$ | . X O O O . . . . . . . . . . . B 1 . |
$$ | . X X O . O . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . X O O X . . . O . X . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . X X O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


If White avoids the ko with :w3:, :b4: looks playable. Black is not really worried about pushing White into the corner, because Black is already strong there. (OC, that means that :bc: was a mistake, but what can you say? ;))

Re: Also lost in the endgame? :)

Posted: Mon Oct 31, 2011 8:17 pm
by jts
Bill (and/or Araban), how would you compare these two?

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm1
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , 4 . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O X O . . . . . . . . . . 3 . . |
$$ | . O X X O X . . . . . . . . . 2 O . . |
$$ | . X O O O . . . . . . . . . . 6 B 1 . |
$$ | . X X O . O . . . , . . . . . X 5 . . |
$$ | . . X O O X . . . O . X . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . X X O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]



Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm1
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , 6 . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O X O . . . . . . . . . . 5 . . |
$$ | . O X X O X . . . . . . . . . 2 O d e |
$$ | . X O O O . . . . . . . . . . 4 X 1 . |
$$ | . X X O . O . . . , . . . . . X 3 a b |
$$ | . . X O O X . . . O . B . . . X . c . |
$$ | . . X X O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


(What I'm specifically asking is, is there something wrong with one of the moves that makes these two positions transpositions? Because it seems that once W gets Bill's :w3: fighting that ko rather becomes rather hard for B.)

ps- Araban, what's the new avatar from?

Re: Also lost in the endgame? :)

Posted: Mon Oct 31, 2011 8:24 pm
by Bill Spight
jts wrote:Bill (and/or Araban), how would you compare these two?

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm1
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , 4 . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O X O . . . . . . . . . . 3 . . |
$$ | . O X X O X . . . . . . . . . 2 O . . |
$$ | . X O O O . . . . . . . . . . 6 B 1 . |
$$ | . X X O . O . . . , . . . . . X 5 . . |
$$ | . . X O O X . . . O . X . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . X X O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]



Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm1
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , 6 . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O X O . . . . . . . . . . 5 . . |
$$ | . O X X O X . . . . . . . . . 2 O d e |
$$ | . X O O O . . . . . . . . . . 4 X 1 . |
$$ | . X X O . O . . . , . . . . . X 3 a b |
$$ | . . X O O X . . . O . B . . . X . c . |
$$ | . . X X O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


(What I'm specifically asking is, is there something wrong with one of the moves that makes these two positions transpositions? Because it seems that once W gets Bill's :w3: fighting that ko rather becomes rather hard for B.)

ps- Araban, what's the new avatar from?


In the first diagram, :w5: is obviously aji keshi. :)

Re: Also lost in the endgame? :)

Posted: Mon Oct 31, 2011 10:17 pm
by Solomon
If the intent is to take the corner, then there is no difference and it's not aji keshi because you'll need the exchange either way to play :w7: :
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm1
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , 4 . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O X O . . . . . . . . . . 3 . . |
$$ | . O X X O X . . . . . . . . . 2 O . . |
$$ | . X O O O . . . . . . . . . . 6 B 1 . |
$$ | . X X O . O . . . , . . . . . X 5 . . |
$$ | . . X O O X . . . O . X . . . X . 7 . |
$$ | . . X X O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

This is what I had in mind (I should have just put :w7: in the original diagram). Thinking about it though, if White wants to run rather than live, then making the exchange is indeed aji keshi and it's best to leave that exchange so that the push is more effective:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm1
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , 4 . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O X O . . . . . . . . 7 5 3 . . |
$$ | . O X X O X . . . . . . . . 6 2 O . . |
$$ | . X O O O . . . . . . . . . . . X 1 . |
$$ | . X X O . O . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . X O O X . . . O . X . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . X X O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Compare if the exchange was already made:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm1
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O X O . . . . . . . . 2 1 O . . |
$$ | . O X X O X . . . . . . . . . X O . . |
$$ | . X O O O . . . . . . . . . . X X O . |
$$ | . X X O . O . . . , . . . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . X O O X . . . O . X . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . X X O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


And the avatar is from Nichijou, the 2011 Azumanga Daioh.
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