Life In 19x19

by78 wrote:The pecking order is: China > South Korea > Japan. China swept all the international titles in 2014 and won most of them in 2015.

China is home to the strongest players and by far the deepest talent pool. It's scary how China produces wave after wave of young, exceptionally strong players. South Korea and Japan are simply outgunned and overwhelmed. This situation is not going to change anytime soon.

All goes to show that there is strength in numbers.

Although I agree China is now the top Go country, it's worth noting that Kang Dongyun (from Korea) just won the LG cup, beating another Korean (Park Younghoon) in the final. Kang had knocked out current Chinese wonderkid Ke Jie in the semi final. I was pleased to see some of this "older" (late 20s!) generation holding off the younger ones.

number of active pro (play at least 1 game in the last 1000 days)
Japan 326
China 269
South Korea 194
Taiwan 25
and top 100 pro
China 54
South Korea 39
Japan 7
(from goratings.org)
China and South Korea have about the same successful rate of pro ranked in top100 (about 20%)
Japan only has 2.1%

The very top spot is always in controversy, even the ranking used the latest method which is mathematically proven to be the best ranking system (Whole History Rating), I just can't believe that Iyama Yuta is no.2 of the world right now cause he mostly play domestic games.

I asked my Chinese go teacher recently about this phenomenon:

He said that there was a player who won a large international tournament and he was treated like a super star in Korea. This led young people to be inspired to start studying go. Although China's population is much larger than Korea's, go culture in Korea is much larger per capita.

Plato said that "What is honored in a land, will be cultivated in that land"

On a somewhat related question, everyone knows the Big Three nations in go are China, South Korea, and Japan. Who would you say is #4? Taiwan, perhaps?

Taiwan, of course. They have several 9ps, one of whom (Zhou Junxun) is the only one outside the big 3 to have won an international title. They sometimes beat Japan in team events.

hyperpape wrote:The last go census said that there were about as many go players in Korea as in China: http://web.archive.org/web/201105122106 ... ensus.html.

THAT is probably the key point. And related to the earlier point of Russia and chess. Though we should note that many of the smaller countries of what was once the USSR produce a disproportionately large number of high rank chess players. Those are cultures which play chess, where chess is important.

Look at the problem is reverse. Why, for example, are there no top go players from the US? Because darned few people play go. There are probably babies born here with the innate potential, but since they never play go (or chess for that matter) that is never discovered.

Mike Novack wrote:

hyperpape wrote:The last go census said that there were about as many go players in Korea as in China: http://web.archive.org/web/201105122106 ... ensus.html.

THAT is probably the key point.

pwaldron wrote:People who look for genetic or cultural reasons are kidding themselves...

I agree that population of go players has the largest impact on "go strength" as a country. I also agree, as pwaldron suggests, that people looking for genetic reasons for success in go are kidding themselves.

I disagree that cultural reasons play no role in success in go, and I think that ignoring cultural impact is naive.

To be clear, a country with a lot of go players will likely find its own way, since this is the most important factor. But we can learn from certain cultural perspectives on the game in ways that will make learning it more efficient.

Just my two cents, though, I'm sure people disagree with me in a thread like this.

Kirby wrote:I disagree that cultural reasons play no role in success in go, and I think that ignoring cultural impact is naive.

The simple fact that baduk is much more present in everyday life (movies, litterature...) and present in people's mind is a cultural aspect that I think no one would deny have a big impact on the quantity of top players.

But I think pwaldron was referring to the argument of the type "the country suffered a lot, so now they are good at baduk". I wonder why this didn't apply before the 80s, and also why this supremacy doesn't appear in, say, soccer or baseball (probably the most popular sports in South Korea).

The history of modern go in Asian countries is interesting. In a sense Japan jump-started professional go in China and Korea. Professional go in both China and Korea benefited greatly from players going to Japan to study (Cho Nam Cheol, Cho Hun Hyun) and Japanese pros making teaching tours of China and Korea (Fujisawa Hideyuki and others).

The parents definitely have a big role as do successful national role models. Consider the rise of Korean women's golf. There are so many stories on this phenomenon that it's hard to choose any one source, but here are a couple that aren't too long:

http://www.puregolftraining.com/public/ ... olfers.cfm

http://www.worldgolf.com/column/why-kor ... r-5643.htm

Just having a lot of golfers goofing around casually is not enough, though it can't hurt. (Or maybe it does? If the set point is "pasttime" then people who take it very seriously might be accused of having priorities that are out of whack.) You need the infrastructure and cultural support for youth to have the chance (and urging) to pursue it seriously. The Koreans seem to be able to look at the success of a Pak Se-ri or Lee Changho, get inspired, and bootstrap things pretty quickly for the next generation.

Jhyn wrote: But I think pwaldron was referring to the argument of the type "the country suffered a lot, so now they are good at baduk". I wonder why this didn't apply before the 80s, and also why this supremacy doesn't appear in, say, soccer or baseball (probably the most popular sports in South Korea).

Well, in the spirit of old threads -- Go and baseball don't mix (=

But on a more serious note, I agree with Calvin: For other sports it is the same combination of numbers and culture, only this time stacked against Korea. There are about as many youth playing organized baseball in the US as there are youth in South Korea*. Additionally it takes a few generations to build up a culture for something. If you take a shine to baseball in the US, you are likely only 1 or 2 steps removed from a "very strong" player who can help you (e.g. a relative or family friend likely played in college or similar). Korea may not have had the time to fully build up this talent base, limiting their success. You have a few prodigies who have the combination of talent and luck to excel (you have to be good and know someone), but on the whole its hard. It will continue to get easier though, as the baseball culture builds more "alumni".

This effect was somewhat seen in baduk as well. You had a lag phase (60s-80s) where only "lucky" prodigies could excel, both talented and happen to get noticed by the right people(ex: Seo BongSoo and Cho HyunHyeon). Eventually the culture has built up to the point where you can have an explosion of talent (90s-00s) because the luck factor dramatically drops (there are many more strong players capable of recognizing and nurturing talent).


*Between 4 and 5 million under the age of twelve. There are a similar number of youth players in Venezuela, which is well known for producing a lot of good players.

Mef wrote:Well, in the spirit of old threads -- Go and baseball don't mix (=

Those are two fantastic posts hidden in a hideous thread, diamonds in the rough. Is there any place to recommend posts for a "best of L19"?

Jhyn wrote:

Mef wrote:Well, in the spirit of old threads -- Go and baseball don't mix (=

Those are two fantastic posts hidden in a hideous thread, diamonds in the rough. Is there any place to recommend posts for a "best of L19"?

I think there was something like that once...but I can't recall what it was called.

Jhyn wrote:

Kirby wrote:I disagree that cultural reasons play no role in success in go, and I think that ignoring cultural impact is naive.

The simple fact that baduk is much more present in everyday life (movies, litterature...) and present in people's mind is a cultural aspect that I think no one would deny have a big impact on the quantity of top players.

But I think pwaldron was referring to the argument of the type "the country suffered a lot, so now they are good at baduk". I wonder why this didn't apply before the 80s, and also why this supremacy doesn't appear in, say, soccer or baseball (probably the most popular sports in South Korea).

Culture is a broad and complicated concept. It affects the thought process of people living in that environment.

I can't say that I understand culture well enough to say that a country's history of suffering is related to the level of Go in that country. On the other hand, I don't understand it well enough to say definitively that there is no relationship, either.

For example, in Korea, there's this concept of "Han" (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Han_(cultural)). From Wikipedia:

Wikipedia wrote:Han denotes a collective feeling of oppression and isolation in the face of insurmountable odds.

Obviously, I don't know if this feeling results in an improved Go skill. But it probably impacts the thought process and persona of individuals in Korea. Does a constant "feeling of isolation in face of insurmountable odds" make you better prepared to play Go?

Maybe not, but I'd argue that nobody here can say "definitely not".

"Han" is just one small example of the complexity which is called "culture". But since culture is so big and so complex, I find it hard to believe that the collective feelings one acquires from their cultural background has no effect on their thought processes, decision processes, ability to study effectively, and more.

Does this mean that people from other cultures cannot do the same things to excel at Go? Certainly not. But practically speaking, these small and seemingly unrelated aspects of culture affect the decisions and actions you ultimately end up taking. You can overcome these influences. But they are still there.