Life In 19x19

So obviously the default is free handicaps, and those are annoying traditional methods.

Sure, the AGA rules are annoying but they use star point handicap and not free placement. We finally agree.

oren wrote:Sure, the AGA rules are annoying but they use star point handicap and not free placement. We finally agree.

No. Free handicaps are the default and strong American club dan wan-na-bes that play go because they are tired of getting beat by Russian Chess Masters, but think they are somehow cool by adding some rules to a centuries old game so that they can be a couple stones stronger. And man, they really are annoying.

SmoothOper wrote:

oren wrote:Sure, the AGA rules are annoying but they use star point handicap and not free placement. We finally agree.

No. Free handicaps are the default and strong American club dan wan-na-bes that play go because they are tired of getting beat by Russian Chess Masters, but think they are somehow cool by adding some rules to a centuries old game so that they can be a couple stones stronger. And man, they really are annoying.

If you think that people come to Go because they want a game without strong foreign players, you have a great deal to learn about the game. In fact, let's start your journey of discovery with this fun fact: the placement of handicap stones on star points is traditional and can be seen in handicap games played three hundred years ago. There was even a period when the placement of the first four stones on the star points was considered mandatory in even games!

By the way, you sound angry and resentful (maybe it's just embarrassment about you confusion about aga rules). You should understand that the conditions of handicap games have little or nothing to do with the desire of stronger players to win games. If they wanted to win more, they would go play someone who could give them a challenge and teach them something new about the game. Playing a handicap game with you is an opportunity for you to learn from them.

SmoothOper wrote:

oren wrote:Sure, the AGA rules are annoying but they use star point handicap and not free placement. We finally agree.

No. Free handicaps are the default and strong American club dan wan-na-bes that play go because they are tired of getting beat by Russian Chess Masters, but think they are somehow cool by adding some rules to a centuries old game so that they can be a couple stones stronger. And man, they really are annoying.

I think someone here is tired of taking handicap from people (^^)/~~~

SmoothOper wrote:

oren wrote:Sure, the AGA rules are annoying but they use star point handicap and not free placement. We finally agree.

No. Free handicaps are the default and strong American club dan wan-na-bes that play go because they are tired of getting beat by Russian Chess Masters, but think they are somehow cool by adding some rules to a centuries old game so that they can be a couple stones stronger. And man, they really are annoying.

Traditional handicaps are the default rule, it is absolutely clear. Contradiction it not an argument. (Yes it is, no it isn't).

It is strange to criticize people for "adding some rules" to a "centuries old game" when all they are doing is following the traditional centuries old handicap placement.

Furthermore, I firmly believe the traditional handicap placements ARE the best way to learn and teach. The starpoints are not good for taking sure territory - but taking third line territory is the easiest thing to do in go - take it from me, after playing for over 30 years its still all I do.

Learning players need to learn about influence, seperating groups and fighting and this is how the starpoints are best used and this is what beginners must learn to properly use the star points. These are hard lessons, and it may frustrate because the stronger player may win, and the poor teacher may not be able to help enough - but the traditional 9 stone landscape provides the right classroom.

Making pillboxes and shimari and clinging to the lessons already learned may very well frustrate a teacher and increase your chances of winning - but they decrease your chances of learning anything new. I certainly agree that these can be interesting boredom distracting endeavors, but they are not the best teaching games.

Go is, of course, about winning, but handicap go should be more about learning and teaching. If you are losing because your efforts to make corner territory with your 4-4 point stones are resulting in your "teacher" carving up the board and crushing you and not offering any help re what you are doing wrong - then you are both doing it wrong.

I am frustrated, because I read a Fuseki book, and I know that the star points are only a subset of Go. However, my local go club is relatively small so I don't have the opportunity to try these other Fuseki against equals everyone is either weaker or stronger, and the weaker players also insist on using the star points, or even a practice other corner openings besides the star point so that I can prepare for more interesting Fuseki. Pretty lame way of teaching, a student that has gone out and read a book on Fuseki, but "No you can't do that we only play star points".

I must admit it is fun to beat up on the 4-4 point, in a game which one wins with territory, we talk about influence.

SmoothOper wrote:I am frustrated, because I read a Fuseki book, and I know that the star points are only a subset of Go. However, my local go club is relatively small so I don't have the opportunity to try these other Fuseki against equals everyone is either weaker or stronger, and the weaker players also insist on using the star points, or even a practice other corner openings besides the star point so that I can prepare for more interesting Fuseki. Pretty lame way of teaching, a student that has gone out and read a book on Fuseki, but "No you can't do that we only play star points".

I must admit it is fun to beat up on the 4-4 point, in a game which one wins with territory, we talk about influence.

Eh, just play even teaching games. That's what I do at my club for practicing fuseki other than that based on 4,4 openings. Playing even games against stronger opponents is good for you anyway.

Boidhre wrote:

SmoothOper wrote:I am frustrated, because I read a Fuseki book, and I know that the star points are only a subset of Go. However, my local go club is relatively small so I don't have the opportunity to try these other Fuseki against equals everyone is either weaker or stronger, and the weaker players also insist on using the star points, or even a practice other corner openings besides the star point so that I can prepare for more interesting Fuseki. Pretty lame way of teaching, a student that has gone out and read a book on Fuseki, but "No you can't do that we only play star points".

I must admit it is fun to beat up on the 4-4 point, in a game which one wins with territory, we talk about influence.

Eh, just play even teaching games. That's what I do at my club for practicing fuseki other than that based on 4,4 openings. Playing even games against stronger opponents is good for you anyway.

Go players at my club seem to prefer star point handicaps for teaching games, I think it is because they only know that one Joseki anyway.

SmoothOper, you can always try your non 4-4 fuseki with equal players online rather than just at your small local club. I see that you have a rating on IGS so why complain that there is no equal for you to test certain fuseki against? No need to keep complaining about how the star points are used as traditional handicap points which prevent you from testing your desired fuseki from your studies. The way the thread is going is very trollish.

MOD WARNING: SmoothOper, you seem to promote the idea of free handicap with the primary intent of provoking readers into an emotional response. Please remember the forum rules that trolling is not allowed.

1. Personal Attacks
Remember the Golden Rule: do to others what you would like to be done to you. Trolling, flaming, bashing, or otherwise verbally attacking anyone is not allowed.

tchan001 wrote:SmoothOper, you can always try your non 4-4 fuseki with equal players online rather than just at your small local club. I see that you have a rating on IGS so why complain that there is no equal for you to test certain fuseki against? No need to keep complaining about how the star points are used as traditional handicap points which prevent you from testing your desired fuseki from your studies. The way the thread is going is very trollish.

MOD WARNING: SmoothOper, you seem to promote the idea of free handicap with the primary intent of provoking readers into an emotional response. Please remember the forum rules that trolling is not allowed.

1. Personal Attacks
Remember the Golden Rule: do to others what you would like to be done to you. Trolling, flaming, bashing, or otherwise verbally attacking anyone is not allowed.

Well, yes and I would like to go to the club and play my Fuseki's which I have used online at a club, but the club's don't want to do however as the AGA specifically permits Free Handicaps, I don't see what they are so "emotional" about.

SmoothOper wrote:Unless otherwise specified(by black), handicap stones shall be placed in this fashion

So you see free handicaps it is.

http://www.usgo.org/resources/downloads ... erules.pdf

First post here, thought I'd keep to my strength of parsing text. SmoothOper, you are misquoting the rules to your own advantage here. There is no paranthetical this line of the rules, i.e. no "(by black)." Rather it simply states, "unless otherwise specified ..."

Therefore, unless allowed by the TD in tournament settings or by mutual consent in a friendly game.

Your appeal to the rules is futile. You cannot compel your opponent to use free placement. Traditional trumps free placement.

EiggHead wrote:

SmoothOper wrote:Unless otherwise specified(by black), handicap stones shall be placed in this fashion

So you see free handicaps it is.

http://www.usgo.org/resources/downloads ... erules.pdf

First post here, thought I'd keep to my strength of parsing text. SmoothOper, you are misquoting the rules to your own advantage here. There is no paranthetical this line of the rules, i.e. no "(by black)." Rather it simply states, "unless otherwise specified ..."

Therefore, unless allowed by the TD in tournament settings or by mutual consent in a friendly game.

Your appeal to the rules is futile. You cannot compel your opponent to use free placement. Traditional trumps free placement.

I can place my handicap stones wherever I want. If they feel they need to resign so be it, but next time there will be fewer handicaps on the board.

I don't mind free or standard placement as white, but to be honest handicap games are a favour from white. Sure, you can do whatever you want, it's not their responsibility to play you.

SmoothOper wrote:
I can place my handicap stones wherever I want. If they feel they need to resign so be it, but next time there will be fewer handicaps on the board.

I'm curious what you think bullying and disrespect will accomplish beyond confirmation of your paranoia?