Re: Hypothetical Admin Transcripts - be the judge!
Posted: Wed May 02, 2012 9:12 am
by topazg
Uberdude wrote:@topazg: Admins get lazy and just give a generic, potentially inaccurate, reason such as "trolling".
As part of the purpose of these discussions was to get a better idea of the performance of admins, this would itself be rather telling, no?
Re: Hypothetical Admin Transcripts - be the judge!
Posted: Wed May 02, 2012 9:31 am
by RBerenguel
topazg wrote:
mw42 wrote:
Mef wrote:Player C has a history of making racial slurs about asian people both in games and in private chats.
That's an interesting point you bring up. I see nothing at all offensive about Player C's comment. Perhaps he is guilty of a stereotype (i.e. asians don't pray, they meditate) but not an offensive one. So, in this situation, you, as an admin, would give me a warning or even a ban, and I, as the user, would be befuddled and inclined to make a post on L19x19 ranting about injustice on KGS.
I think you missed the semantics about Player C's last contribution:
"Person C: Yeah, when praying go, pray as the asians do."
That seems to be a pretty clear slur on certain Asian groups' pronunciation of English words to me...
Maybe it's because I'm not Asian, but I'd find that comment amusing more than insulting, I guess even if applied to me in some broad sense (i.e. if you made a pun like this with how Spanish people are supposedly lazy I'd probably laugh at it more than be angry) I'd laugh at it.
And as you say: any conversation topic can make people angry for some reason or another...
Re: Hypothetical Admin Transcripts - be the judge!
Posted: Wed May 02, 2012 10:46 am
by jts
Thoughts on the hypothesis.
1. In context, "Please take this conversation elsewhere" is unsuitably vague, although the "no religion rule" is sufficiently well-ingrained on the internet that I think most people would understand what was going on. Unsuitable vagueness gives the impression that admins are being arbitrary, and it is hard to say "arbitrary" without adding "unfair" or "spiteful".
2. If any of them were banned, with no further explanation, I would be displeased. B is clearly discussing meditation as a concentration technique; A's second comment has this flavor as well. C was clearly moving in a theological direction before the warning, but his second comment was just a pun.
3. I've been in positions of petty authority before (and have plenty of them to look forward to in the future), so I understand how hard it can be to give a warning or lay down a rule, and then immediately have people trample on it in harmless ways. But that merely shows that it was a mistake for the admin to pounce immediately. It was an even bigger mistake for him to phrase his command in such a vague way that anything other than complete silence from A, B, and C could be construed as defiance.
4. If there was a history on the part of A or C of discussing religion in the EGR and they had been warned not to do it again in the future, banning them without further warning would be better than issuing a vague warning and then banning them for continuing the discussion in a more secular direction.
5. And in that case, "Please do not discuss religion in the EGR. A, you have been warned multiple times for breaking this rule." would be more appropriate. Admins have stated multiple times that they like to handle things privately, with the implication that they are actually sparing A from public humiliation, but (stop reading, hyperpape) if the police carried away one of my acquaintances but declined to announce the charges against him to protect his reputation... well, I'm sure you can imagine how I would feel.
6. I agree that ethnic jokes are much less family friendly than naughty words, but making a big deal about C's first comment makes it harder to then chide him for the second without creating the impression that the admin is acting on a grudge against C.
Re: Hypothetical Admin Transcripts - be the judge!
Posted: Wed May 02, 2012 10:57 am
by Javaness2
I'd go for 1."Persons A,B & C: Stand in the corner" or 2. a series of kicks
Responses may vary. Terms and conditions may apply. Corners may die.
Re: Hypothetical Admin Transcripts - be the judge!
Posted: Wed May 02, 2012 12:45 pm
by topazg
Javaness2 wrote:I'd go for 1."Persons A,B & C: Stand in the corner" or 2. a series of kicks
I have always appreciated the way you've used your administrative weight in KGS
Re: Hypothetical Admin Transcripts - be the judge!
Posted: Wed May 02, 2012 3:01 pm
by BigDoug
Thanks for providing the example. It's much better than the one which I had proposed.
In this instance, I would make a distinction between what A and B said versus person C. Person C changed the topic from prayer to specifically religion (i.e., does God exist). I believe that such a discussion is inappropriate for the EGR.
Having warned the people to stop the discussion in the EGR, if it continued I would direct one or more not to talk in the EGR for a specified period of time.
At this point, the people in the discussion would have several options.
1. Continue as they are (although I would recommend that this choice isn't selected) 2. Talk with me in private chat to provide their point of view and possibly result in the EGR chat ban being revoked 3. Continue the discussion in another room 4. Stop the discussion altogether
Re: Hypothetical Admin Transcripts - be the judge!
Posted: Wed May 02, 2012 3:14 pm
by BigDoug
topazg wrote:
mw42 wrote:... and admins were forced to log an explanation publicly, there would be no misunderstanding.
This I 100% agree with. I think, regardless of the risk of embarrassing the user in question, all bans should have a noted explanation for what they did wrong, that should live about as long as the past games list does. BigDoug, would there be any particular objection to something like this existing from the administrator's point of view that you can think of?
The purpose of the publicly-available ban list isn't clear to me.
If a person believes that he or she has been banned inappropriately, then there are several avenues for resolving the situation. The preferred option is for the person to write to admin@gokgs.com and explain the situation. All such e-mails are investigated and explanations provided to the person who complained. The person can also speak with the admin after the ban has expired to obtain a more detailed explanation.
There is also a personal embarrassment aspect to be considered. Being human, we all make mistakes. When I make a mistake, I apologise to the person involved and attempt to rectify the original mistake. As well, it's very common for people to explain the circumstances of their mistake to me (e.g., bad day at school, while playing go to relax an escaper taunted him or her before leaving and the person over-reacted by dropping the f-bomb). The person who was banned recognised that he or she was at fault and is embarrassed by the original reaction. These things happen. I obviously make mistakes too and certainly sympathise with people who make mistakes under difficult circumstances.
Therefore, taking this example, what is the purpose of making this person's name and circumstances available for public view?
Re: Hypothetical Admin Transcripts - be the judge!
Posted: Wed May 02, 2012 3:22 pm
by shapenaji
I think if I were the admin in this situation, if I felt something was out of place, I would target that specifically. I think the ambiguity over what conversation should stop can create problems.
If an admin feels that one (or multiple) of those comments was out of place, they should target that specifically:
Admin a) "Please move conversations about religion to pm or another room" Admin b) "Avoid puns based on racial stereotypes, this is against the TOS, further conversation along those lines will result in bans"
I think clarity would eliminate a lot of the problems here.
Re: Hypothetical Admin Transcripts - be the judge!
Posted: Wed May 02, 2012 3:46 pm
by badukJr
'Admin' shouldn't have said anything in the first place.
Re: Hypothetical Admin Transcripts - be the judge!
Posted: Wed May 02, 2012 4:37 pm
by Uberdude
Ditto, admin shouldn't have said anything in the first place.
Re: Hypothetical Admin Transcripts - be the judge!
Posted: Wed May 02, 2012 4:38 pm
by Uberdude
BigDoug wrote: When I make a mistake, I apologise to the person involved and attempt to rectify the original mistake.
Re: Hypothetical Admin Transcripts - be the judge!
Posted: Wed May 02, 2012 4:57 pm
by Mef
topazg wrote:
mw42 wrote:... and admins were forced to log an explanation publicly, there would be no misunderstanding.
This I 100% agree with. I think, regardless of the risk of embarrassing the user in question, all bans should have a noted explanation for what they did wrong, that should live about as long as the past games list does. BigDoug, would there be any particular objection to something like this existing from the administrator's point of view that you can think of?
I'm not Doug, but I can think of a few things offhand that might be problematic --
First one that comes to mind would be exposure of aliases (or really privacy in general). As a matter of policy we don't reveal alternate accounts for people haven't publicly made it clear it is one of their aliases, however a boot log would quickly put an end to that. This is perhaps a small thing, but I still think there is a principle there that should be respected. You may not believe so, but I'd like to think that even users who were banned have a right to some privacy. Likewise, even if it's abusive private chat, it's still their private chat and discussing it with the whole server without their consent is a line I wouldn't want to cross. There's a lot of room for non-banned people to get caught in crossfire here too...Imagine, you're in a game and you get beaten by a sandbagger, who then goes on to use all sorts of obscenities to describe you, your family and your go playing...you discreetly bring it up with an administrator who bans the sandbagger giving a reason of "Please don't make abusive remarks to other users"...suddenly a whole group of people who become boot log junkies (let's be honest, this will happen if there is a public boot log) are scouring through the sandbagger's recent games to find out why they are booted. Suddenly your bad day against a mean opponent is a public affair even though you have done nothing wrong and may have wanted to keep it a (relatively) private matter.
The second goes along with the server idea of "no public accusation." Just as people love to keep escaper lists, "doesn't say hello and good game" lists, tilde lists and all sorts of other blacklists, this would just provide more fodder for people who like to feel smug and superior to others. Worst case scenario it could turn into witchhunting. Best case scenario it is a giant forum of "public accusation"
The third is that I would worry about some disruptive users treating it like a scoreboard, trying to get on the ban list as many times as they can...giving them public validation may exacerbate their behavior.
Re: Hypothetical Admin Transcripts - be the judge!
Posted: Wed May 02, 2012 5:02 pm
by Uberdude
I've not yet made up my mind on whether a public boot log is a good idea, but would err on the "No" side.
Re: Hypothetical Admin Transcripts - be the judge!
Posted: Wed May 02, 2012 5:02 pm
by Mef
RBerenguel wrote:Maybe it's because I'm not Asian, but I'd find that comment amusing more than insulting, I guess even if applied to me in some broad sense (i.e. if you made a pun like this with how Spanish people are supposedly lazy I'd probably laugh at it more than be angry) I'd laugh at it.
And as you say: any conversation topic can make people angry for some reason or another...
Perhaps I wasn't quite clear on my intent -- I was trying to see if and how a greater context might influence opinion on the proper course of action. So to clarify -- you feel the comment is equally harmless both from someone who it is their first day on KGS and someone who has a history of making derogatory remarks about asians? (Just to avoid being misinterpreted, I am genuinely asking, since the purpose of the thread is to share perspectives)
Re: Hypothetical Admin Transcripts - be the judge!
Posted: Wed May 02, 2012 5:31 pm
by badukJr
Mef wrote:
RBerenguel wrote:Maybe it's because I'm not Asian, but I'd find that comment amusing more than insulting, I guess even if applied to me in some broad sense (i.e. if you made a pun like this with how Spanish people are supposedly lazy I'd probably laugh at it more than be angry) I'd laugh at it.
And as you say: any conversation topic can make people angry for some reason or another...
Perhaps I wasn't quite clear on my intent -- I was trying to see if and how a greater context might influence opinion on the proper course of action. So to clarify -- you feel the comment is equally harmless both from someone who it is their first day on KGS and someone who has a history of making derogatory remarks about asians? (Just to avoid being misinterpreted, I am genuinely asking, since the purpose of the thread is to share perspectives)
