Life In 19x19

I am going to try to force him to make some moves in this corner, which I should be able to end in sente, and then play along the bottom to try to build some large bottom middle territory.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$Bcm1
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My goal is to leave bottom left in sente and get stone A. If he ignores bottom left then I am going to gain a lot of territory.

I want to keep the joseki as simple as possible since I'm weaker tactically.

I'm hoping for:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$Bcm1
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$$ | . . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . O , X . X O . y . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . x . X O O . . . . . . . . X . . . |
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Aiming at the attachment at x and extension to y later on.

As an aside, I think studying joseki's like these definitely helps with shape.

If you deliberately tenuki'd his last corner move, what makes you think you'll be getting sente to play the first move on the bottom? I'm interested as to why your think the situation is different in the lower left corner to the lower right corner

Hmm, I forgot to give my reasoning for responding to him in the lower left. I think allowing him a strong position in the lower left is bigger than me getting one in the lower right right now. Specifically I don't want him to build a wall in the lower left facing his position on top. In the lower left I've the choice of the corner and side or outside influence and neither is hugely appealing to me given he gets to control the direction of play in the lower left. If the directional orientation of my 3,4 stone faced my upper right stone I'd have happily taken a wall facing my position.

The simplest outcome in the bottom right for me would have been:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$Bcm1
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$$ | . . O , X . . . . , . . . . X O O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . O . . . . . . . . X O . . |
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$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

I made a grave error here though I think as white should not tenuki here from going through a database (SmartGo). (I felt looking at the "joseki" that White couldn't tenuki here so I checked) If he played at a, I could have tenuki'd and continued a normal joseki in the lower left. If he neglects to play a I can ignore his tenuki and play at a myself most likely as I don't think he can afford to let this corner die after investing so much into it.


Lesson learned for future games.

Actually, I can hopefully tenuki in sente at some point on the left. Hmmm. Now the question of timing. It all depends on his response in the left.

My goal in the bottom right was to play M4 and gain large territory in the bottom middle. But first I want to establish my position in the bottom on the left side as the board as well. In most Joeseki's that I looked up for what is going to happen in the bottom left in the next few moves. It looks like I will have sente, and I will play M4, and he will likely take my stone at R5, which is fine with me.

Not sure if my line of thinking is great. but I should get a large bottom middle territory. However, this leaves D15 has a large move for me after because I cannot just let him get all the corners. (He will have bottom right, 0.5 of the bottom left). While I have the bottom middle.

(1) In general (say, on an empty board) how would you rank these (from biggest to smallest) -- (a) sides; (b) center; (c) corners ?

(2) Follow-up question:

Drewch wrote:gain large territory in the bottom middle.

How does your "bottom middle" idea fit in your answer to (1) ?

I know that the order that you should get them in are: Corner, side, middle (I know this doesn't answer your question).
But I think in order of bigness, I would say middle is biggest, then sides, then corners.

So I was thinking that the bottom middle is bigger than the corners.

However, even typing this out is making me feel a bit silly and that I am probably completely wrong.

Boidhre wrote:

$$B
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$$ | . . 8 . . X . x . 1 . x . . . . . . . |
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$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . 4 2 . . |
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Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$B
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$$ | . . . 7 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 8 . . X . x . 1 . x . . . . . . . |
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$$ -----------------------------------------[/go]

W does not have to reply to . Instead:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$W
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$$ -----------------------------------------[/go]

B missed a big chance with ; instead, starts an attack on the group while expanding the lower right moyo --
W would be too busy to worry about (a) or (b):

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$B
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$$ -----------------------------------------[/go]

No problem.

Drewch wrote:I know that the order that you should get them in are: Corner, side, middle
But I think in order of bigness, I would say middle is biggest, then sides, then corners.

Could you explain this discrepancy? Why would "the order you should get them" be the exact opposite of the bigness ordering?
In other words, if the corners are the smallest (as you say), then why should you take the corners first?
Similarly, if the center is the biggest (as you say), then why should you take it last?

The reason for taking them first is because corners are much easier to get then middle, and sides are next easiest, and the middle is the hardest to get.
So the corners are definitely the most bang for your buck, essentially making it the "Biggest" play.

In terms of territory though, I know that the third line's being white all around the board, and the black taking 4th line all around the board. Gives the closest ratio to 1 (black owns all center territory, and white owns all side+corners).

So in this sense, the territory amount possible is Center>Sides>Corner

But in terms of the Biggest move, I definitely agree that corner's are the biggest move, and then the sides, and then the center of the board.

In the case of the current game, I think I was able to make moves seeming like I am going for the corner, but really trying to secure an entire side, and in terms of the bottom of the board, I believe I can own the middle, and 0.5 of a corner. leaving him with 1.5 corners.

I think this would put me ahead in the early game in terms of territory.

I am hoping that this is what happens. I am curious to see if my thinking is completely flawed.

In normal games I would always defend the corners first. This game is definitely out of my normal style. But I am glad this is coming up. Thanks Ed.

I think I am not typing out my plan properly, so I'm going to make a diagram for how I think it is going to go:
On the left side it is the attach and extend joseski:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$Bcm1
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$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
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$$ | . . . . . . X . . . . . . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . O , X . X O . , . . . O X O O X . |
$$ | . . . . X O O . . . . O . . O X X O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Sorry, I couldn't have the numbers on there properly. But after the left, I will play M4, and he will likely play Q5 starting the joeseki

Joseki.

Finishing attach and extend joseki

It'll be interesting to see what he does next and whether I can tenuki before he does.

Attach and Extend Joeseki is complete. Now carry out to the rest.