Life In 19x19

mogosoup wrote:Being pro is more like some faraway dream to fantasize about. Im 16 and I just started a few months ago. No I don't plan on become pro. Just wanted some details. Is there anything in English that I can read? I think the whole thing about playing go professionally is interesting and was just wondering about what the loads of kids who don't become pro do.

Well, have you read First Kyu? If not, it's worth it for a go player or fan.

There is a dark side to all of this. The situation for kids seriously studying to become pro in some countries is somewhat of a concern. Guo Juan 5p mentioned it in one of her recent KGS Plus lectures. Basically, there are these schools where kids study go to the exclusion of everything else, even primary school education. It used to be that a student training to be a professional would get at least some normal education, but if they were successful, they wouldn't go to college. Kano Yoshinori (of Graded Go Problems for Beginners fame), for example, is notable for actually having gone to university. But with kids today studying go from morning until midnight, that's a completely different situation. Most will not become pros, but then, what can they do if they give up everything else to become strong at go?

A while ago there was a posting on rec.games.go by someone who said something like, "any work for a 6dan?" The first response was, "do you know how to use a shovel?" I think that captures the essence of the situation.

I don't know where you are from. In the U.S., parents are not too keen on overspecialization. Maybe the most extreme case is for athletes or subcultures like the circus. But even then, kids get tutors and often get at least a GED or some college. There may be no analogy here for what is happening to these very young go students.

snorri wrote:

mogosoup wrote:Being pro is more like some faraway dream to fantasize about. Im 16 and I just started a few months ago. No I don't plan on become pro. Just wanted some details. Is there anything in English that I can read? I think the whole thing about playing go professionally is interesting and was just wondering about what the loads of kids who don't become pro do.

Well, have you read First Kyu? If not, it's worth it for a go player or fan.

There is a dark side to all of this. The situation for kids seriously studying to become pro in some countries is somewhat of a concern. Guo Juan 5p mentioned it in one of her recent KGS Plus lectures. Basically, there are these schools where kids study go to the exclusion of everything else, even primary school education. It used to be that a student training to be a professional would get at least some normal education, but if they were successful, they wouldn't go to college. Kano Yoshinori (of Graded Go Problems for Beginners fame), for example, is notable for actually having gone to university. But with kids today studying go from morning until midnight, that's a completely different situation. Most will not become pros, but then, what can they do if they give up everything else to become strong at go?

A while ago there was a posting on rec.games.go by someone who said something like, "any work for a 6dan?" The first response was, "do you know how to use a shovel?" I think that captures the essence of the situation.

I don't know where you are from. In the U.S., parents are not too keen on overspecialization. Maybe the most extreme case is for athletes or subcultures like the circus. But even then, kids get tutors and often get at least a GED or some college. There may be no analogy here for what is happening to these very young go students.

I might get the book it's only 13 bucks on Amazon http://www.amazon.com/First-Kyu-Sung-Hw ... 0964479699

Do you know when Guo Juan's lecture took place. I'm subscribed to KGS PLUS. I want to look it up.

snorri wrote:

mogosoup wrote:Being pro is more like some faraway dream to fantasize about. Im 16 and I just started a few months ago. No I don't plan on become pro. Just wanted some details. Is there anything in English that I can read? I think the whole thing about playing go professionally is interesting and was just wondering about what the loads of kids who don't become pro do.

Well, have you read First Kyu? If not, it's worth it for a go player or fan.

There is a dark side to all of this. The situation for kids seriously studying to become pro in some countries is somewhat of a concern. Guo Juan 5p mentioned it in one of her recent KGS Plus lectures. Basically, there are these schools where kids study go to the exclusion of everything else, even primary school education. It used to be that a student training to be a professional would get at least some normal education, but if they were successful, they wouldn't go to college. Kano Yoshinori (of Graded Go Problems for Beginners fame), for example, is notable for actually having gone to university. But with kids today studying go from morning until midnight, that's a completely different situation. Most will not become pros, but then, what can they do if they give up everything else to become strong at go?

A while ago there was a posting on rec.games.go by someone who said something like, "any work for a 6dan?" The first response was, "do you know how to use a shovel?" I think that captures the essence of the situation.

I don't know where you are from. In the U.S., parents are not too keen on overspecialization. Maybe the most extreme case is for athletes or subcultures like the circus. But even then, kids get tutors and often get at least a GED or some college. There may be no analogy here for what is happening to these very young go students.

I am speculating that the kids in these schools are either A) from a well off family who can afford Go school which I guess is not cheap or B) have a family that is somehow connected to go in the first place, and subsequently have alternatives to playing Go like commentating and participating in the leagues(like so many of the not-quite professional basketball players with connections).

snorri wrote:There may be no analogy here for what is happening to these very young go students.

snorri, do you know (and I'm genuinely asking) about the situations for children striving to become tennis pros, swimming pros, etc
in various countries (including the US) ?

SmoothOper wrote:or B) have a family that is somehow connected to go in the first place...

If by "connected to Go" you mean "aware of Go," then this would include most families as Go has been part of the culture for thousands of years;
otherwise if you mean "connected to a Go pro or the Chinese Go Association," that would be no for most families.

EdLee wrote:

SmoothOper wrote:or B) have a family that is somehow connected to go in the first place...

If by "connected to Go" you mean "aware of Go," then this would include most families as Go has been part of the culture for thousands of years;
otherwise if you mean "connected to a Go pro or the Chinese Go Association," that would be no for most families.

The latter of course. The connection of to Go of most families in Japan-China-Korea is probably much less than you might think having been around so long.

EdLee wrote:

snorri wrote:There may be no analogy here for what is happening to these very young go students.

snorri, do you know (and I'm genuinely asking) about the situations for children striving to become tennis pros, swimming pros, etc
in various countries (including the US) ?

I am not claiming to be an expert and there are many things I am ignorant of on both sides of this. Some hard facts would be welcome. What makes me feel that some of the asian go schools are on a different scale of commitment are statements like the following from the interview with Curtis Tang:

About 2,000 students at the Beijing school live in dorm rooms. After a morning jog at 6 a.m., he and the other kids studied or played Go until 11 p.m., he said. Every day. No literature, art or science lessons, not even math, he added. Just strategy, lectures, replaying classic games from years past and challenging each other to matches.

The young athletes you mention certainly make a lot of sacrifices. They move in with their coaches, lose almost all social life, etc. Often they are tutored or home schooled. But most U.S. states have homeschooling laws. The are limits to the sacrifice.

Maybe there is some analogy, but I still get the impression the scale is different.

snorri wrote:

EdLee wrote:

snorri wrote:There may be no analogy here for what is happening to these very young go students.

snorri, do you know (and I'm genuinely asking) about the situations for children striving to become tennis pros, swimming pros, etc
in various countries (including the US) ?

I am not claiming to be an expert and there are many things I am ignorant of on both sides of this. Some hard facts would be welcome. What makes me feel that some of the asian go schools are on a different scale of commitment are statements like the following from the interview with Curtis Tang:

About 2,000 students at the Beijing school live in dorm rooms. After a morning jog at 6 a.m., he and the other kids studied or played Go until 11 p.m., he said. Every day. No literature, art or science lessons, not even math, he added. Just strategy, lectures, replaying classic games from years past and challenging each other to matches.

The young athletes you mention certainly make a lot of sacrifices. They move in with their coaches, lose almost all social life, etc. Often they are tutored or home schooled. But most U.S. states have homeschooling laws. The are limits to the sacrifice.

Maybe there is some analogy, but I still get the impression the scale is different.

I think that is/was the Chinese communist approach to athletics/arts/games/etc. The movie "Mao's Last Dancer" is a good example of how they would select talent almost randomly at a young age. I am pretty sure Japan and South Korea didn't do it that way. Also keep in mind if a young go player didn't succeed in the communist system they weren't necessarily thrown to the sharks.