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7k vs 7k: Where did I go wrong?

https://www.lifein19x19.com/viewtopic.php?t=6133

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Re: 7k vs 7k: Where did I go wrong?

Posted: Sun Jun 10, 2012 1:46 pm
by mw42
EdLee, I didn't mean to give offense. Unfortunately, sente/gote is somewhat mysterious to me in the early game so using it as a reason is obscure. Shape, on the other hand, is something that I can understand. If FluffM didn't understand why my move was better shape (hence didn't understand my stated reason), I would attempt to explain. I was only asking for a little further explanation because I would like to understand.

Posted: Sun Jun 10, 2012 2:36 pm
by EdLee
Redundant, thanks for your $0.02. This happens to be a clear-cut case for pros. :)

Posted: Sun Jun 10, 2012 2:38 pm
by EdLee
mw42, thanks for the clarification. :) I'm happy to study this more with you.

(Unless otherwise noted, all the following discussion is about this specific board position, and not about Go in general.)

First re-direction of your thought process: do you want to live in sente or gote here?

Re: 7k vs 7k: Where did I go wrong?

Posted: Sun Jun 10, 2012 2:53 pm
by jts
Are you being vague about which pros you asked because you don't think it matters, or because you are protecting their privacy? At first I was mildly curious about who you asked, but this is now taking on the dimensions of a full-scale mystery! :D

(Not that I disagree with R7... sente rocks ofc.)

Posted: Sun Jun 10, 2012 3:25 pm
by EdLee
jts, yes. :mrgreen:

Re: 7k vs 7k: Where did I go wrong?

Posted: Sun Jun 10, 2012 9:01 pm
by Shaddy
My 2 cents:

It is clear that 23 in the game is better than the good shape move. The sente move does not immediately result in the destruction of black's shape, nor does it change the life and death status in the corner, so the good shape move can only be worth points. This is the opening, and the loss in the corner would be maximum ~5 points, and sente in the opening is worth more than that.

Re: 7k vs 7k: Where did I go wrong?

Posted: Tue Jun 12, 2012 4:56 pm
by FluffM
Bill Spight wrote:A few comments. :)



Bill, thank you for your detailed comments. It gives me a lot to think about!

Re: 7k vs 7k: Where did I go wrong?

Posted: Tue Jun 26, 2012 1:13 pm
by bobfish
Speaking of Life and Death puzzles, you have your very own in this game. After move 244, White's D19, Black should be able to kill white in the upper left corner. This would be a significant gain over what actually happened.

In the actual game's final position,
1. white counts 3 points of territory from this corner
2. white captured 2 black stones on route to claiming the territory
3. white occupies 13 points that could have been under black's influence
4. black had to play 3 stones to contain white's group

At move 244
5. there are 5 white stones that black could have captured
6. black has to play a stone to kill white's group which takes away a point of territory. (-1)

Adding this up and not worrying about white's sente changing the course of the game too much, this is a gain of 25 points.

I am a noob so take everything I say with a grain of salt.

Re: 7k vs 7k: Where did I go wrong?

Posted: Tue Jun 26, 2012 3:55 pm
by Ellyster
I don't know why nobody commented this, but...


I think that the key point of the game is :black:203... that time you completely forgot about the capture race in course (when you were winning, as you can see in the variation is impossible for him to scape alive). It's worth at least 33 direct points for you between captures + territory (if he do a right reading and gives up the group inmediately) plus the potential points in the corner, and a much better shape.

Loosing that costed you at least -20 direct points also. So the total difference was about more than 53 points (more or less the difference of the game).


Posted: Tue Jun 26, 2012 4:18 pm
by EdLee
Ellyster, that's nice, but in your variation, how about :black:211 at P19 (not o18) :),
and :black:207 at o16 first (not N17 first).

Re: 7k vs 7k: Where did I go wrong?

Posted: Tue Jun 26, 2012 4:43 pm
by Ellyster
Yes, sure even better... I didn't choose the best shaped variation, just the one that is more stright forward to show that with M16 there is not possible scape.

I think that no 7k will go that far, the will read ahead and give the group at least after N15... after that I moved just randomly to show a closed final, but thanks for the point... next time I will try to countinue with the best secuence posible until the end (and don't be so lazzy).
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