Life In 19x19

Uberdude wrote:Illluck's hane connect then clamp is the recommended punishment - pro opinion.

I'm sure you were being tongue-in-cheek and referencing this thread. But I don't think "pros play this way so you should too" is the best advice. I liked the diagrams from Bill and Mef, which gave me a better idea of why I might not want to play the descent.

Given this diagram:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$Bc
$$ . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . 1 . . |
$$ . . . . . X O . . |
$$ . X . O . X O . . |
$$ . . . . 3 . 2 . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ------------------+[/go]

Can't White force a transposition?

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$Bc
$$ . . . . . . 6 . . |
$$ . . . . . . 1 . . |
$$ . . . . . X O . . |
$$ . X . O 5 X O . . |
$$ . . . . 3 4 2 . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ------------------+[/go]

Which makes me think of the immediate clamp:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$Bc
$$ . . . . . . 4 . . |
$$ . . . . . 5 1 6 . |
$$ . . . . . X O . . |
$$ . X . O . X O . . |
$$ . . . . 3 . 2 . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ------------------+[/go]

Sometimes this may be preferable to the hane and connect variation.

tchan001 wrote:I remember learning this punishment from a workshop by Kang Seung-hee 2p a few years ago.

Search for the relevant parts of her lecture:
Double Digit Kyu Workshop by Kang Seung-hee 2p part 4a
Double Digit Kyu Workshop by Kang Seung-hee 2p part 5a

at http://eurogotv.com

That variation she showed with the 9k in part 4a... seems completely wrong. There's no way that the descent after clamp is right (even though she said around 5 min that it was good and the right move).

I'm sure she can wipe the board with me even giving 4-6 stones, but that variation can't be right.

Edit: To add a bit more info, here's my try at the punish of the sequence shown.

tchan001 wrote:why he believes the r5 move not to be a mistake by Black.

Nowhere did I say whether or not I consider R5 to be a mistake by Black. Please don't put words into my mouth.

See this thread -- in particular John's Posts #3 and #9 -- viewtopic.php?f=12&t=1578

Mmm, the sequence I proposed 2 posts ago may not be correct because one of the moves is not as forcing as I originally thought. Second attempt?

Here's how a Japanese 9p crushed the hane when Azerbaijan's comedy 6 dan played it in the 1st WMSG (he also did it to Alex Selby the UK representative in the 2011 WAGC and Alex immediately cut which is bad as then black plays the 2nd line hane-connect and white is in big trouble).

Illustrating my point about white connecting on the 3rd line and black not being as thick, we can do a little tewari. Assuming black backs down and connects at 2, white now has a choice of how to connect.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$Wc How to connect?
$$ . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . 2 X . . |
$$ . . . . . X O . . |
$$ . X . O a X O . . |
$$ . . . . b 1 c d . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ------------------+[/go]

If you played the descent first then you have already picked your answer at c. However, a and b look better. There is a shape problem with a if you want to jump out later (though the exchange of 6 for 7 does lose some yose for black in the corner):

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$Wc Shape weakness
$$ . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . 5 . 2 X . . |
$$ . . . 8 . X O . . |
$$ . X . O 3 X O . . |
$$ . . . . 6 1 7 . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ------------------+[/go]

Connecting with b avoids this but doesn't have as many points or take a liberty from black. I'm not sure which is better. Black could always hane once before connecting at 2 if he doesn't like white playing b, but that does lose a little corner yose.

So now let's compare white's points and black's thickness with the descent vs hane variations (given black backs down with 2).

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$Wc Descent v1
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . 2 X . . |
$$ . . . 8 6 . X O . . |
$$ . . X . O 4 X O . . |
$$ . . . . 7 5 3 1 . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ --------------------+[/go]

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$Wc Descent v2
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . 2 X . . |
$$ . . b 8 6 . X O . . |
$$ . . X 7 O 4 X O . . |
$$ . 0 9 a . 5 3 1 . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ --------------------+[/go]

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$Wc Hane
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . b . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . 2 X . . |
$$ . . . 8 6 a X O . . |
$$ . . X . O 3 X O . . |
$$ . . . . 7 4 1 5 . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ --------------------+[/go]

White has the weakness of push and cut at a or a peep at b to aim at so black is not as thick (plus has fewer points). Also white has more points that in Descent v1.

Mmm, the sequence I see recommended by Wu Xinyu after black backing down is b as it doesn't allow black to complete the wall solidly,

illluck wrote:Mmm, the sequence I see recommended by Wu Xinyu after black backing down is b as it doesn't allow black to complete the wall solidly,

Interesting. If black really wants the wall he could do this but it loses some yose so maybe white isn't so sad:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$Wc I want a wall!
$$ . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . 4 X . . |
$$ . . . 6 . X O . . |
$$ . X . O 5 X O . . |
$$ . . . . 2 1 3 . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ------------------+[/go]

Tedomari s.b. tewari, right?

jts wrote:Tedomari s.b. tewari, right?

Yes, thanks. Corrected.

EdLee wrote:IMO if you think "punish" the hane, you're already on the wrong track.

EdLee wrote:

tchan001 wrote:why he believes the r5 move not to be a mistake by Black.

Nowhere did I say whether or not I consider R5 to be a mistake by Black. Please don't put words into my mouth.

See this thread -- in particular John's Posts #3 and #9 -- viewtopic.php?f=12&t=1578

Ed, I interpret your original statement as follows:
1. on the wrong track >>> made a mistake
2. "punish" the hane >>> the source of the mistake

John Fairbairn wrote:If you want another way to look at it, the pro attitude is to say: If all my moves are perfect, I don't need to worry about my opponent's moves. The amateur attitude is to look for imperfections in the opponent's moves and to try to punish them.

If you reread what JF wrote, you'll see that he's talking about pros making an effort to play perfect moves and not being able to be punished by his opponent. He is talking about the attitude of not looking for imperfections in the opponent's move. We are talking about how to punish something we know is an imperfection in the opponent's move. Nowhere does JF say that you should overlook imperfections in the opponent's move. He's only talking about how pros invest and don't look for get rich quick schemes. You need to remember that in investments, arbitrage is a very profitable activity which takes advantage of mispricings in the market. Likewise, punishing well known imperfections is reaping reward for playing solid moves yourself.

tchan, I'm currently in 3 Malkovich games and strictly speaking cannot peruse Ishida or Takao,
but I'm very curious if either of them used the word "punish" or "punishment" in their dictionaries.
I seem to remember wordings like "foil", "counter attack", "avoid the trap",
and of course the usual "favorable", "unfavorable", "satisfied", "dissatisfied", etc.
I suppose I can search for "punish" in kogo as a text file without actually reading it.

tchan001 wrote:Nowhere does JF say that you should overlook imperfections in the opponent's move.

Neither did I.

jts wrote:Tedomari s.b. tewari, right?

"s.b." s.b. "should be", rt?

There's no need for that much work. Pros routinely call certain moves "overplays", what do they try to do against those moves?