Life In 19x19

jts wrote:One reason joseki are boring is a selection effect; western go is largely composed of people who could have played chess but, at some point, decided they didn't like chess enough to take it seriously. And for a lot of people, that reason was that they found memorizing openings ridiculous.

karaklis wrote:

jts wrote:One reason joseki are boring is a selection effect; western go is largely composed of people who could have played chess but, at some point, decided they didn't like chess enough to take it seriously. And for a lot of people, that reason was that they found memorizing openings ridiculous.

That makes sense. It seems that such guys often get stuck around 6k

Uberdude wrote:Here is an example of what you can gain from studying joseki:

$$Bc 3-4 pincer joseki
$$ ------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . a 1 . . . . .
$$ | . . . , . . . . .
$$ | . b . 2 . . . . .
$$ | . . . . 4 . . . .
$$ | . . 3 . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . .

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$Bc 3-4 pincer joseki
$$ ------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . a 1 . . . . .
$$ | . . . , . . . . .
$$ | . b . 2 . . . . .
$$ | . . . . 4 . . . .
$$ | . . 3 . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . .[/go]

Black's one space low pincer aims to connect his stones at c15. White's usual responses, such as a, b or this kosumi (and yes I am aware it is an old joseki) prevent this connection. This shape of a 3-space 3rd line to 4th line extension is very common, and this shape knowledge learnt from joseki is very useful. Here's a random example from a pro game:

$$Wc 1 invades, 2 runs and keeps it cut (one space jump to a would not cut)
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . X . 1 . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . 2 . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . a . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$Wc 1 invades, 2 runs and keeps it cut (one space jump to a would not cut)
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . X . 1 . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . 2 . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . a . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |[/go]

A friend of mine who is about 7k does not study joseki, read books etc. He does not know this kosumi to prevent the connection as a piece of shape knowledge. He might find it in a game, but it won't come to him automatically as it does to me who has studied that 3-4 pincer joseki.

Araban wrote:I don't think studying joseki is needed. Anything you may possibly learn from studying joseki can also be learned from studying haengma, shapes, etc. without the risk of finding yourself "studying" the moves of joseki sequences without understanding each move's purpose and when it's appropriate given the global situation.

mitsun wrote:

Araban wrote:I don't think studying joseki is needed. Anything you may possibly learn from studying joseki can also be learned from studying haengma, shapes, etc. without the risk of finding yourself "studying" the moves of joseki sequences without understanding each move's purpose and when it's appropriate given the global situation.

I don't quite agree with this. Some joseki get into very complicated lines where life and death are at stake and the "purpose" of every move is to survive in the only way possible. If you do not know the joseki from previous study, extremely high levels of reading skill are required to find the correct moves -- knowledge of shape and tesuji are not enough.