Life In 19x19

jts wrote:The reason why Otenki repeated the (fairly standard) caution that studying pro games isn't usually the fastest way for beginners to improve:

I have to disagree with this too, but only somewhat...

I think its debatable, and you're probably right, that there may be faster ways to improve.
And I think you are correct that we may attribute mistaken reasons for various moves.

But I still think that studying (or at least playing through) pro games is a good way for beginners to improve. And I think its far easier to later correct mistaken reasoning for good moves than it is to later correct habitual bad moves.

xed_over wrote:

jts wrote:The reason why Otenki repeated the (fairly standard) caution that studying pro games isn't usually the fastest way for beginners to improve:

I have to disagree with this too, but only somewhat...

I think its debatable, and you're probably right, that there may be faster ways to improve.
And I think you are correct that we may attribute mistaken reasons for various moves.

But I still think that studying (or at least playing through) pro games is a good way for beginners to improve. And I think its far easier to later correct mistaken reasoning for good moves than it is to later correct habitual bad moves.

There may be faster ways to improve, but the question is will the experience from reviewing these games have some other side benefit such as remembering shapes, remembering past instances of situations that are similar...

Just my thoughts anyway that is why I enjoy watching pro games I feel as if they are taking me with them into battle. It is like being next to the Military Commander as the war is going on (except from both sides).

jts wrote:That all sounds very good. Are you sure you're merely 25k? The reason why Otenki repeated the (fairly standard) caution that studying pro games isn't usually the fastest way for beginners to improve: in general it's quite hard to spot cuts, connections, life, and death. If you see the the cut, then when you see the pro connect you have learned something (both about how to connect, and about when to connect). But if you don't see the cut, you're likely to think he was trying to make territory in the center, or something like that. Or you might think he's trying to connect, when in fact he's attacking - and so on.

I'll often study a pro game extensively before looking at the commentary, and I'm often surprised by how badly I misunderstood the purpose of specific moves. (Well, surprised is the wrong word. I now expect to be shocked.)

To be honest I am not sure what rating I am. I have only ever played free games, and when I first found Go a few months ago I pushed myself to my limits to try and figure it out really fast, and to understand it. I then read an online document that talked about being careful to not create bad habits, because once created they are amazingly hard to break in go. After getting constantly whooped (out of my very very few games) I took a break for a few months while watching pro games, and hikaru no go... its a good anime love how it shows the go world through the eyes of a beginner, Insei, and professional player. the reason I took a break is to first figure out what i wanted to achieve, and then work up to doing it.

So now I have board/stones coming, and a book (can't wait for my board and stone to get here)
Board:(like this one) http://www.ebay.com/itm/Go-Game-Board-One-Piece-Solid-Wood-/230859117253?_trksid=p4340.m1850&_trkparms=aid%3D222002%26algo%3DSIC.FIT%26ao%3D1%26asc%3D11%26meid%3D2465770607547752978%26pid%3D100011%26prg%3D1005%26rk%3D1%26sd%3D230858372070%26
Stones:http://www.amazon.com/Glass-Go-Stones-JangStone-No-2/dp/B000E4BASS/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1348952961&sr=8-1&keywords=8.5mm+go+stones
Book: GO A Complete Introduction To The Game By Cho Chikun

Almost time to get to work!

But yea... I am just guessing at my rating just wanted to put something even if I am unsure of its accuracy.

Uzziel wrote:

xed_over wrote:

jts wrote:The reason why Otenki repeated the (fairly standard) caution that studying pro games isn't usually the fastest way for beginners to improve:

I have to disagree with this too, but only somewhat...

I think its debatable, and you're probably right, that there may be faster ways to improve.
And I think you are correct that we may attribute mistaken reasons for various moves.

But I still think that studying (or at least playing through) pro games is a good way for beginners to improve. And I think its far easier to later correct mistaken reasoning for good moves than it is to later correct habitual bad moves.

There may be faster ways to improve, but the question is will the experience from reviewing these games have some other side benefit such as remembering shapes, remembering past instances of the same almost the same situations... etc... etc...

From just a single personal anecdote... I improved from DDK to SDK, a range of about 4 stones, in only a few month's time, mostly from only memorizing (playing through) pro games and game recording amateur high dan games.

I don't do that as often as I used to do anymore, but from my own personal experience, I still believe its an effective method.

xed_over wrote:

jts wrote:The reason why Otenki repeated the (fairly standard) caution that studying pro games isn't usually the fastest way for beginners to improve:

I have to disagree with this too, but only somewhat...

I think its debatable, and you're probably right, that there may be faster ways to improve.
And I think you are correct that we may attribute mistaken reasons for various moves.

But I still think that studying (or at least playing through) pro games is a good way for beginners to improve. And I think its far easier to later correct mistaken reasoning for good moves than it is to later correct habitual bad moves.

Yes, yes, I think we're on the same page. I think we were both on record in a recent thread as saying that the best way to study is going to differ a lot from person to person based on their aptitudes, what they enjoy, and so on. But certainly the pay-off of pro games relative to alternatives changes as you get stronger.

I guess you could take the same attitude to watching 4-dans blitz each others' brains out on KGS, right? Probably not the best way for beginners to improve, but markedly better than playing tennis.

Uzziel: your attitude towards your rank (not caring) and bad habits (not wanting) are both commendable! Have you checked out the ASR league on KGS? I haven't taken part in it for a while, but it is a great way to get lots of intense, unranked games.

jts wrote:

xed_over wrote:

jts wrote:The reason why Otenki repeated the (fairly standard) caution that studying pro games isn't usually the fastest way for beginners to improve:

I have to disagree with this too, but only somewhat...

I think its debatable, and you're probably right, that there may be faster ways to improve.
And I think you are correct that we may attribute mistaken reasons for various moves.

But I still think that studying (or at least playing through) pro games is a good way for beginners to improve. And I think its far easier to later correct mistaken reasoning for good moves than it is to later correct habitual bad moves.

Yes, yes, I think we're on the same page. I think we were both on record in a recent thread as saying that the best way to study is going to differ a lot from person to person based on their aptitudes, what they enjoy, and so on. But certainly the pay-off of pro games relative to alternatives changes as you get stronger.

I guess you could take the same attitude to watching 4-dans blitz each others' brains out on KGS, right? Probably not the best way for beginners to improve, but markedly better than playing tennis.

Uzziel: your attitude towards your rank (not caring) and bad habits (not wanting) are both commendable! Have you checked out the ASR league on KGS? I haven't taken part in it for a while, but it is a great way to get lots of intense, unranked games.

I have looked at the Advanced Study Room (had it suggested to me in another thread). I searched for online administrators to get in for October but was unable to find any in order to register.

I will probably have to try for next month.

They normally don't stop registration on the first of the month... that's only a deadline for getting seeded into a stronger division if you're dan-level. (Or at least, that's how it used to be.)

You should try daal... I think daal's signature says he's an admin.

jts wrote:They normally don't stop registration on the first of the month... that's only a deadline for getting seeded into a stronger division if you're dan-level. (Or at least, that's how it used to be.)

You should try daal... I think daal's signature says he's an admin.

I will get on and see if he is there. Thanks.

This thread inspired me to try guessing my way through the first 100 moves of a pro game:



I was able to hit 41% of the moves on the first guess, which is better than I thought I would do. If I let myself try multiple guesses (up to 4) I found 73% . The moves are all there if you want to see what I was thinking.

Nice job on getting 41%! Next time, though, you need to toughen up and make it through the ko fight.

Moves like c18 in pro games frequently befuddle me. (a) It's a threat I never would have thought of. (b) The opponent doesn't reply. (c) Neither player touches it for another 50 moves. My only guess is that the threat of d18 effectively prevented B from fighting fiercely on the top side. (Plus, it has big follow-ups for both sides.)

Also I completely missed both the distant 3-4 approaches. I guess I don't play them enough in games.

emeraldemon wrote:Also I completely missed both the distant 3-4 approaches. I guess I don't play them enough in games.

Maybe it is not that you do not play them enough, and it is instead that you have not seen them played enough.

Could be both too

Congrats on the successful test

I then read an online document that talked about being careful to not create bad habits, because once created they are amazingly hard to break in go. After getting constantly whooped (out of my very very few games) I took a break for a few months while watching pro games,

Every autodidactic community I have ever been part of has warnings against creating bad habits, and it's true that they can be quite hard to get rid of, but I think the difficulty is somewhat exaggerated and the warnings do more harm than good. It's pretty common to see people not advancing because they want to avoid creating problems that are to fix later, but this is a big mistake. It is impossible to get better at go without picking up some bad habits, but all you have to do to get rid of those bad habits is concentrate on not doing them. The main reason bad habits persist is not because breaking them is harder than learning to do it right first time (I actually think it might be easier), but because breaking them is now competing with not breaking them, which takes no effort whatsoever. It's hard to think of a quicker and more reliable way to improve than correcting your bad habits. They get a bad rep, but I'm always happy to see one.

Basically what I'm trying to say is that if you have the dedication to improve, there's nothing you can do now that will stop you, and if you don't it won't matter anyway, so you might as well just have fun playing go.

Splatted wrote:

I then read an online document that talked about being careful to not create bad habits, because once created they are amazingly hard to break in go. After getting constantly whooped (out of my very very few games) I took a break for a few months while watching pro games,

Every autodidactic community I have ever been part of has warnings against creating bad habits, and it's true that they can be quite hard to get rid of, but I think the difficulty is somewhat exaggerated and the warnings do more harm than good. It's pretty common to see people not advancing because they want to avoid creating problems that are to fix later, but this is a big mistake. It is impossible to get better at go without picking up some bad habits, but all you have to do to get rid of those bad habits is concentrate on not doing them. The main reason bad habits persist is not because breaking them is harder than learning to do it right first time (I actually think it might be easier), but because breaking them is now competing with not breaking them, which takes no effort whatsoever. It's hard to think of a quicker and more reliable way to improve than correcting your bad habits. They get a bad rep, but I'm always happy to see one.

Basically what I'm trying to say is that if you have the dedication to improve, there's nothing you can do now that will stop you, and if you don't it won't matter anyway, so you might as well just have fun playing go.

The webpage I was reading from was owned by a go coach. He specifically said that beginner's are very impressionable and that bad habits will make the difference between someone who becomes a dan level player fast or painfully slow.

I was just being cautious I am not going to be that way anymore now that I am dealing with more than just learning by playing.

I agree with you though.

Maybe the distinction to make is between bad habits you can pick up while playing/practicing, and bad habits you can get by putting too much faith in an over-enthusiastic amateur teacher.