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Re: The Passing of Go superiority in East Asia
Posted: Mon Oct 08, 2012 9:36 am
by Shaddy
AFAIK China doesn't use free handicap.
Re: The Passing of Go superiority in East Asia
Posted: Mon Oct 08, 2012 9:39 am
by speedchase
according to wikipedia:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Go_handicapskorean rules have fixed handicap placement, so I think the theory is flawed.
Re: The Passing of Go superiority in East Asia
Posted: Mon Oct 08, 2012 9:44 am
by oren
I was watching some of the English Baduk TV broadcast where the commentator was also not happy about the decline of Japanese Go when they failed to win any games during the Nongshim cup. He wanted the Nongshim Cup at least to go back to where affiliation with the professional organization could determine who would play, so at least Cho U would be available to the Japanese side. I thought it was interesting just how much a Korean commentator really wanted to see Japan become more competitive.
Right now China to me looks the overall strongest with the most young talent. Koreans previously had a lot of wins, but it was mostly spread across three players (Cho Hunhyun, Lee Changho, and Lee Sedol). Korea has some good young talent now, and it will be interesting to see how China vs Korea goes for the next few years.
Re: The Passing of Go superiority in East Asia
Posted: Mon Oct 08, 2012 10:24 am
by SmoothOper
Shaddy wrote:AFAIK China doesn't use free handicap.
According to the link that speedchase posted the handicaps in China are free placement.
I will say that with popularity and money in Go in Korea that China is doing rather well internationally. We'll have to see if they are able to maintain the advantage in years to come. On a side note it is interesting, that in the link speedchase posted, what the advantages of free placement are. I find the corresponding argument that traditionally placed handicaps have more variation a little contrived.
Re: The Passing of Go superiority in East Asia
Posted: Mon Oct 08, 2012 10:38 am
by Uberdude
I've posted this link before, but as it's relevant again you might like this colour-coded table I made which shows the rise of Korean (blue) and then Chinese (red) over the Japanese (green) in international tournaments:
http://homepage.ntlworld.com/andrew.j.s ... Table.htmlP.S. In the book Nie Weiping On Go there is a load of communist propaganda style biography, in which it is clear that the encouragement he received from politicians (until they fell out with Mao, cultural revolution etc.) to get stronger was fuelled by nationalistic pride.
P.P.S. "Japanese are weak because they have 4-4 handicaps" is such a laughable argument I won't even bother to refute it.
Re: The Passing of Go superiority in East Asia
Posted: Mon Oct 08, 2012 10:59 am
by oren
Uberdude wrote:I've posted this link before, but as it's relevant again you might like this colour-coded table I made which shows the rise of Korean (blue) and then Chinese (red) over the Japanese (green) in international tournaments:
http://homepage.ntlworld.com/andrew.j.s ... Table.html
A couple suggestions for it.
1) Add Nongshim Cup
2) Color code the tournament locations as well when appropriate. I think there is some correlation with players playing better at a "home" tournament.
I also laugh at the free handicap suggestion.
Re: The Passing of Go superiority in East Asia
Posted: Mon Oct 08, 2012 10:59 am
by skydyr
One argument I have heard (maybe here somewhere?) is that the longer playing times of japanese tournaments leads to a different style of play that doesn't work as well in the more hectic pacing of international tournaments.
Re: The Passing of Go superiority in East Asia
Posted: Mon Oct 08, 2012 11:05 am
by jts
oren wrote:Uberdude wrote:I've posted this link before, but as it's relevant again you might like this colour-coded table I made which shows the rise of Korean (blue) and then Chinese (red) over the Japanese (green) in international tournaments:
http://homepage.ntlworld.com/andrew.j.s ... Table.html
A couple suggestions for it.
1) Add Nongshim Cup
2) Color code the tournament locations as well when appropriate. I think there is some correlation with players playing better at a "home" tournament.
I also laugh at the free handicap suggestion.
That's a team competition, no?
(And while I'm being contrary, the chart is just busy enough to be informative without being completely useless. If he adds more colors for the locations, he might as well add powerpoint animations of flying aircraft.)
Re: The Passing of Go superiority in East Asia
Posted: Mon Oct 08, 2012 11:15 am
by oren
skydyr wrote:One argument I have heard (maybe here somewhere?) is that the longer playing times of japanese tournaments leads to a different style of play that doesn't work as well in the more hectic pacing of international tournaments.
I have heard that as well, but I've never heard the Japanese actually say that before.
Mostly from what I hear in Korean and Japanese media is that the Korean and Chinese just study harder and in groups, but the Japanese aren't doing that as much. You could argue the focus of the Japanese players is to beat Japanese players and the Koreans and Chinese are focused on building stronger groups of players.
Re: The Passing of Go superiority in East Asia
Posted: Mon Oct 08, 2012 11:20 am
by quantumf
SoDesuNe wrote:As far as I know, japanese Go has a completely different culture evolving around Go than e.g. Korea. You have matches that last long hours, in the past (maybe still, I don't know), you had title games which last several days. Koreans play - I don't know therefore exaggerated - 5*30 seconds in title games?
From what I can tell from watching Korean BadukTV, the games seem to be 10 minutes + 5 * 40 seconds. That is a really fast pace, the games are remarkably high quality despite that, but mistakes are made, particularly in the end game (or maybe its just easier to prove end game moves are mistakes).
Re: The Passing of Go superiority in East Asia
Posted: Mon Oct 08, 2012 11:39 am
by emeraldemon
Re: The Passing of Go superiority in East Asia
Posted: Mon Oct 08, 2012 1:06 pm
by xed_over
maybe Mickey Mouse time limits work best with Mickey Mouse stones.
edit: image too large
Re: The Passing of Go superiority in East Asia
Posted: Mon Oct 08, 2012 5:27 pm
by Subotai
From the Time chart it seems like the time issue isn't that big of a deal. All of the international tournaments have at least an hour of play time and it seems that it is mainly the Korean domestic tournaments with the blitz time settings.
One friend told me that the reason is within the teacher student relationships in these three countries.
In Japan when a teacher corrects a move of a high level amateur and says the correct move is here, the student listens and corrects his playing.
In Korea when this happens the student bows his head but then utters to himself that he/she is right and doesn't correct his playing
In China when this happens the student argues with the teacher explaining why he/she is right.
This of course is a gross generalization but to an extent could be quite true. The students who create these new moves and strategies eventually become the better players.
Re: The Passing of Go superiority in East Asia
Posted: Mon Oct 08, 2012 7:41 pm
by xed_over
Subotai wrote:In Japan ...
In Korea ...
In China ...
This of course is a gross generalization but to an extent could be quite true.
Re: The Passing of Go superiority in East Asia
Posted: Mon Oct 08, 2012 7:45 pm
by Subotai
As I mentioned a friend told me this and some other friend told him. So this is just hearsay, yet may be evidence as to how Go has developed in the recent few decades.